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Jamaica Plain coffeehouse opens to protests
By adamg on Sat, 02/11/2023 - 11:15am
Public Coffee Co., 182 Hyde Park Ave. in Jamaica Plain, affiliated with a Wesleyan start-up church, held its official grand opening this morning - with several people standing outside protesting Wesleyan positions on LGBTQ people and abortion.
The coffee shop is owned by Amanda Oicle, the leader of the Public Church, which says it plans to make the small coffeehouse the hub for community life at Public Church.
The Wesleyan Church says it opposes "gender noncomformity" as part of a "state of depravity" and "a violation of the sanctity of human life," although it does allow that transgender people should be allowed to have food, clothing and shelter - except they should be barred from public institutions so as not to offend good Christians. The church is currently rewriting its official position paper on homosexuality, but says the new position will still continue to hold that "sexual relationships between persons of the same sex are immoral and sinful." The church opposes abortion and says that while violence at abortion clinics is wrong, sit-ins inside them are OK.
As four protesters held signs outside, a friend of Oicle's came out to talk to a reporter and photographer. She said that the coffeehouse is not affiliated with the church, that it's unfair to protest a locally owned small business because of the owner's religion.
The coffeehouse's incorporation documents, filed with the Secretary of State's office, list Public Church Boston as its "registered agent."
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Comments
lie
"not affiliated with the church" is clearly a lie when you are planning to use it as the community hub of your church.
“ She said that the
“ She said that the coffeehouse is not affiliated with the church, that it's unfair to protest a locally owned small business because of the owner's religion.”
Fair or unfair …. is the world fair?
The owner says she plans to make the coffee house the hub for the community life of her church. So it’s somewhere between a business and a community center affiliated with a church.
Not just a straightforward business. Sounds sneaky to me. If people want to protest on those grounds, I see their point.
I won’t buy their creepy coffee there.
Protesting religion or protesting expressed views
It's not about protesting someone's faith, it's protesting their expressed views. The friend's response falls into this way of thinking that eliminates personal accountability in making the choice to explore faith through that venue. This allows a degree of insulation from critique, because religious affiliation can take on a particularly intimate/personal quality that is also "out of my hands because it's God".
At the end of the day, when a group that clearly holds views based around fear of people they don't understand, and then moves into a neighborhood with an enormous representation of those very people to the point of common knowledge, you can't help but wonder what the intention was.
Alternatively, perhaps God spoke to her and is channeling her to Centre Street so that she can learn to accept all sorts of different people that she's afraid of?
Amzing Coffee open to the public
This is completely unfair. Christians have a right to open businesses and churches are allowed to have any space as anyone else should in this country. THey have been kind to everyone in this area from day one. Are we now persecuting Christians in America wow. The land of the free and the home of the brave. We need to respect everyone's beliefs including Christians. May God help us all. ANYWAYS THE coffee is wonderful and they are nice people who during the pandemic helped many families and fight daily to see JP shine. Stop by and you will see.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism
People are allowed to complain and protest about whatever they want! No one is forbidding that a Christian open a Christian-oriented business, that’s perfectly legal. It’s also legal for people to express that they don’t welcome hateful views or groups in their community! Relax, snowflake. They’ll be fine.
If the church is going to be activist about their beliefs
then any affiliated business is going to have to expect rightful public protest.
Rare is the pastor…..
… that keeps their whatever it is they offer to followers free of political or social leanings.
Some are just more open about it.
To give a counter example
These protesters are a milder version of the people who stand in front of Planned Parenthood and attempt to "inform" patrons of the evils that lie within. The goal in both cases is to shame patrons into going elsewhere and shutting down the operation.
To be clear, I'm very much pro-choice, pro-LGBTQ+. I won't be buying coffee at that shop.
But, you don't want government deciding who is right and wrong in regards to protesting. If there's a boundary outside a PP in which protesters can't occupy, the same should apply to this cafe and every other shop.
I don't see it that way. This
I don't see it that way. This is more like leafletting in front of "Crisis Pregnancy Centers". The coffee house, and those type of centers, are not telling you what they really do. They're lying to their patrons. The protests are letting people know more about the business. Then you still want to go in? Up to you.
Having an abortion….
…. and having a cup of coffee really don’t equate.
That's the point
What constitutes acceptable protest needs to be universal without regard to the validity of their arguments.
One of the things I like about the ACLU is that they understand defending horrible people is sometimes necessary to ensure the rights of good people aren't diminished.
So, I think there is a
So, I think there is a reasonable difference between a place that sells food and a place which offers medical services. I think that a reasoned argument can be made that the space in front of one and the space in front of the other are not the same.
Now, I could see that the same law applied to places that offer Abortion as part of their health care services be applied to the "Pregnancy Crisis" centers, or for that matter to Acupuncture Clinics and Plastic Surgeon's Offices, as they all represent the same "class" of establishment.
No...
It's not the "validity of their arguments", it's the skin in the game. Missing out on a cup of coffee is in no way comparable to missing out on necessary healthcare. And women's health clinic "protesters" do a good bit more than try to "persuade" those seeking services at the clinic.
The ACLU's position specifically on "protesters" at women's health clinics has evolved and is not anywhere near as absolute as many probably think. "...the Massachusetts statute is constitutional on its face. There can be no doubt that the state has a significant, indeed compelling, interest in preserving the health and safety of clinic patients and staff, and in ensuring that women who exercise their right to end their pregnancies have unimpeded access to abortion services. And, while there is no claim that Petitioners themselves have engaged in violent protest, the state is entitled to consider the broader record of obstruction and violence directed at abortion clinics in Massachusetts and elsewhere when enacting general legislation intended to further those interests. "
There isn't.
The buffer zone was ruled unconstitutional.
Tax churches
Tax churches
It sounds like semantics to
It sounds like semantics to me. She is the leader of the public Church, she owns the Public Coffee House and she the coffee house would be the center of the social life of the church.
Don't like it don't go there
Simple as that isn't it?
Why do folks think they have the right to push their beliefs onto others. If you disagree with this church or their stance then don't patronize the business. Just because you believe something is "right" doesn't mean others agree with you. The market will dictate if this business survives not your morals or beliefs.
It's their first amendment
It's their first amendment right to protest. Also the opinion of the church is that people are evil for simply existing. Which is fully bigoted. The owner aims she wants this as a meeting point for the bigoted and politically opinionated church so I think it's fully fair for them to protest.
They do have a right to protest
First off, I don't care who is and who isn't religious. Whatever consenting adults do in the privacy of their home is their business as long as no one is being harmed. I don't even use the word "hate" because there are truly some evil people in the world who are deserving of that. I really want people to be happy and healthy and refuse to live my life perpetually angry because it's not good for my mental health.
People in the have a right to protest the shop as long as they don't harass patrons who are just trying to get some coffee from a local business.
My position is that is the community doesn't support them, the free market will do what the free market does.
I didn’t know and I wouldn’t
I didn’t know and I wouldn’t have known the church connection if it weren’t for the sign holders . Now I can effectively avoid the place .
Is there a sign?
Is there a sign in the shop specifying their anti-LGBTQ positions?
The owner publicized their bigoted intentions
very clearly before opening
tax the churches if they’re going to push a political agenda
and btw
who would Jesus hate
Love the sinner hate the sin
Public coffee is welcome in Boston.
Clearly, the protesters aren't going there...
Or are you saying the protestors shouldn't exercise their freedom of speech to educate potential patrons who might be unaware of the store's religious connections and views?
More of the market is the path of righteousness and truth?
I doubt honest profit or the lack of will determine the fate of this enterprise.
This place is funded.
The protestors are merely informing people
so that they can indeed make that "don't like it, don't go there" market decision for themselves.
But now I know
You’re absolutely right that people who don’t like the beliefs of the owner don’t have to patron the shop. But I wouldn’t have known about her hateful beliefs had it not been for the protestors and this article, so it’s appreciated. They were calmly educating potential customers. Can’t see the harm in that!
1st Ammendment
If you don't agree with the protesters then just walk on by and go in! No one is physically stopping you and your big smart brain from grabbing some joe, big dog. Let everyone see what "username unknown" is really about!
protest is one part of the market deciding
n/t
The market will decide
and these protesters are making sure that decision is well-informed.
Addendum: Hey, I got to be the third person in a row to make the same point! I have to learn to read all the way through the existing comments before adding my own. But at least I'm in good company.
Woof
The market needs to be fully informed if it's to dictate the success of the business. The protesters were raising awareness of the full facts/intentions being kept secret by the business owner
proselytizing comes in the shape of coffee houses
The Well's locations in Boston, Common Good in Waltham.. parts of coordinated efforts to evangelize in "godless" New England ... how many others?
Would the Puritans have stood for this?
?
You might say coffee is a kind of unorganized religion.
The puritans would have
The puritans would have objected to coffee and drinkers would have spent time in stocks.
They found a way to get our
They found a way to get our money and patronage.
I had no idea!
Thanks very much for sharing this. I prefer not to go spend my money on explicitly religious institutions so it is helpful to know about these other religious coffee houses!
common good almost got me
for a hot minute it seemed like finally a good place nearby to periodically work from - they market it as coworking as well - but im glad i looked into it further. just like the others, the religious connection and "mission" is not made explicit.
The Well doesn't push anything
I go there because it is close by and not Starbucks. The churchy part is very subtle, and not in your face. Sure, there is stuff on their website but they don't plaster the place with it or proselytize at all. The most you will see of it in the store is the wifi password and some of the flair the baristas wear.
They give free coffee and a place to be warm or cool for people from the nearby shelter and a comfortable space for those people to meet up with and connect with their friends.
Their mission is to use the coffeehouse to provide jobs, raise money for a variety of charities and lead by example. I wouldn't put them into the same pot as these others. The charities are widely varied and not church-based.
From their website:
http://www.thewellcoffeehouse.com/about/mission
I miss having the Well in
I miss having the Well in South Station! Great people all around, and no, they've never tried to "recruit" or push an agenda that I've seen. Just genuinely good people serving AWESOME drinks, and using what they do to help others. I don't get to Downtown Crossing enough.
well...
Like Swirly, I used to go into the Well because (I thought*) it wasn't a big chain.
But I looked into it more. Two of the three owners are Liberty University theology grads-- that's Jerry Falwell's turf. And, yeah, their church teaches that homosexuality is a sin, they teach gender essentialism, that men should lead women, etc etc. The usual. I don't go there anymore for the same reason I don't live in rural Virginia anymore, and it's not because I wanted to get away from the beautiful scenery and homegrown tomatoes. They don't get my money.
*The Well is affiliated with The Church At the Well. Right now, they have coffeehouses in Tennessee, Virginia, California, Ohio (which is where there coffee is from) and I think 3 in Boston. They probably have more elsewhere.
Thanks for the background
I guess part of not evangelizing to your face or on the walls makes it easier to be quiet about underlying issues.
And do note that the college someone was sent to does not necessarily play through to their adult life. A friend who was required by her parents to attend Gordon College for two years is the most activist liberal that I know. My son's partner has parents on faculty at Gordon, but she is definitely not buying what they sell either.
True, Swirly. I spent a few
True, Swirly. I spent a few months waiting tables in Lynchburg VA, and got to know a few extremely closeted lesbian Liberty students who were manipulated into going there by family-- you couldn't pay me to be 17 years old again, I swear. Unfortunately, the guys at the Well seem to be very happy with the values taught in the Liberty U theology program.
Public Church Coffee House vs The Well
I support any business that has some altruistic merit. The Well donates money to non-profits that help the poor like Rosie's Place and Women's Lunch Place. I was once unhoused/homeless and depended on services like these and I always hoped if life turned around enough that I can be in a position to give back to the community I would. But as luck would have it my luck never lasts long. But when I was working I would always go to the well near Government Center. Just ashame that they don't stay open late in either location. There aren't many places where people can go that is safe and sober in East Boston and Boston. Also too bad their prices I can no longer afford but at least I can benefit through the organizations they donate to.
but..
how do they provide jobs if most of their employees work for free?
btw, one of the charities they donate to is their own church. its right there on their site, sneakily all the way at the bottom of the list.
pretty sweet total package right there, no? untaxed revenue, incredibly low payroll, all the profits donated right to your own "charity"...
nah, they're the same. that they all feel the need to pretty much hide what they really are says a lot.
What church is Common Good in Waltham affiliated with?
Renaissance Christian Church
It’s not obvious on the coffee shop website (my first thought: “the church of #hustle?”). Reddit gave the first hints: https://www.reddit.com/r/Waltham/comments/tkah41/common_good_waltham_ope...
Suspiciously, there is a since-deleted page from their last church in Providence, RI about the owner being “sent” to Waltham to build this new church, Renaissance. While simultaneously “launching a coffee shop…to bring good news to Waltham”. I believe the accompanying video was made private as well:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220323000234/https://bpri.church/blog/2021...
Suspicious to me because all other blog posts and videos from the home church are up before and after this one.
the only difference is how hidden the underlying beliefs are
I went down this rabbit hole a bit last night myself, looking at the Well and the Common Good backgrounds.
It's more hidden with these, but the roots of both these spaces and their churches seem to be the same as the easier-to-follow background on Public Coffee. They are all "church plants" by evangelical groups, with relatively easy to read-through beliefs. Public Coffee's background is easier to see the anti-gay, anti-abortion views online. The others don't come out and say it explicilty, but in my view it's pretty easy to see where they stand.
An interesting background article on the founding couple behind Renaissance Church in Waltham and the Common Good space:
https://www.duboiscountyfreepress.com/answered-calling-local-minister-le...
All of these are "love the sinner, hate the sin" in background. "We believe the bible is the word of God, and infallable", but don't hit people over the head with the "sin" message. The them hooked and then talk about the sin.
super sneaky
they really sell the coffee shop as "oh, we moved here and just noticed this kind of space was missing, so we started it", when in reality that was part of the plan all along.
and no mention of the relationship to renaissance's staff, who teach other people how to start evangelizing businesses of their own.
i thought true Christianity was about not being duplicitous? interesting..
Isn't that the movie theater church?
Not sure which denomination has been holding services in local theaters, but I've got to give them points for creativity.
not especially original
Churches in New York City have been buying up disused movie theaters to use for church services at least since the 1980s.
I would be very surprised if that was an "only in New York" thing.
That happened in Belmont
to the Studio Cinema.
Sometimes the conversion goes the other direction. The Coolidge Corner theatre in Brookline was originally built as a church.
But what the commenter is referring to is churches that rent a still-operating movie theatre on Sunday mornings for their services. The Somerville Theatre in Davis Square used to have one, maybe still does.
Churches at Drive In Theaters
Yeah, I think this is fairly common. Where I grew up, in Southern California, there were lots of churches that operated out of drive-in theaters on Sunday mornings, including some that went on to become mega churches.
I'll stick with Dunks.
If I want coffee, I'll just get a coffee somewhere I'm not becoming part of something. Same reason I've never been to Chik Fil A.
Every know anyone who worked for Dunks?
That's why I won't go to Dunks. My son worked there two summers.
You’re still part of something else …
…. when you buy at Dunkin’s.
Ever wonder why their employees panhandle at work or what their working conditions are?
Where their profits go?
I avoid Dunkin’s for those reasons and because they sell just about nothing of nutritional value.
They wanted to move into the food desert I lived in a few years ago even after residents specifically said no big chains like Dunkin’s in the new low income building going up. They got in, no problem.
registered agent
You can't say that a church (or any other organization) is your business's "registered agent" and expect me to believe that the business isn't affiliated with the church.
You can't say that your business will be the "hub" for community life at a church, and then expect anyone to believe that there's no meaningful connection between the two.
They have many ….
…. erroneous beliefs, it seems.
God given exceptions to ethical rules?
Even if I agreed with their belief, which I don’t, I would still condemn the them for dishonesty and agree with the protesters on that.
I hear that
Chick Fil-A is really tasty, but I'll never know because I refuse to eat there.
I understand that their founder is ultra-right wing and anti-LBGTQ.
I have a funny cartoon panel in mind on the matter.
A bunch of chickens are flapping around in the parking lot of Chick Fil-A, going in circles because they only have their left wings. Someone asks what that's all about.
One of the chickens replies, "The boss insists on only using the "right wings."
If I were to unknowingly eat at any other such establishment, I'd want to know.
I was shopping at Dollar Tree recently. I bought a bag of spicy snacks. The brand name is Brim's. I brought them home and ate some, reading the bag, and noticed a website mentioned. The company is owned by a right-wing church of some sort in Memphis, TN. They're into reprogramming, if I read right. After reading that, I threw away the rest of the bag. No thank you!
Public Coffee "Co" claiming 501(c)3 status?
If "Co" is aka for "Company," there needs to be a name change if Public Coffee is claiming 501(c)3 status as a church. "Public Living Rooms" are ineligible for non-profit status, and Public Coffee Co is misrepresenting itself to the public. They need to pony up their taxes like any business. If I went into this place unaware and purchased items, then found out after the fact that it is affiliated with the Wesleyan Church, I would feel hoodwinked and be justifiably upset.
501(c)3
It doesn't just apply to churches. It is an IRS designation for a nonprofit organization, which can include your local swim team, farmers market organization, historical society, etc. in addition to your local church.
The key being that it is non advocacy and non political. That's 501(c)4.
Non-profits orgs can own for-profit companies
For example, the non-profit Poynter Institute owns the for-profit Tampa Bay Times newspaper.
How's their coffee?
How's their coffee?
Bitter
.
On par …
…. with their Koolaid.
Are these the same people...
Are these the same people who opened a Coffee Shop on Huntington Avenue on the same block as The Mission Bar and Grille and held prayer services on Sunday nights I think. If so they didn't last long.
There problem was they didn't make decent coffee and there is a Dunks a block away around the corner. 7-11's coffee was better than theirs IMHO.
They won't last anyway.
They won't last anyway. Nothing lasts there.
Waltham has a church
Waltham has a church affiliated coffee shop, Common Good, that tries to fly under the radar as well I believe.
Anyone know anything about the Farmer’s Horse …
… across from Mass Ave station on the Orange Line?
I don’t but do want to know.
A nice place with okay espresso, but it has an odd vibe.