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The problem with electric cars in Boston: Charger deserts in many neighborhoods
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They're still cars in a city
Plus, you know, they're still cars, and the fact that they are electric does not magically solve the issues of congestion and parking and running over cyclists and pedestrians
Seems like an opportunity for businesses
If supermarkets, drug stores or other retail establishments put fast chargers in they could get a boost in sales from people who figure it's easier to kill two birds with one stone and charge their car while they're doing a bit of needed shopping.
Assuming they have a parking lot
The chargers are becoming more common in shopping areas -- Most supermarkets with their own parking lot have them now as do municipal and corporate lots. Although it's rare I see anyone using them.
My [unrealistic] hope is that once combustion cars get phased out it encourages urbanites to ditch their car entirely since charging is going to be a bigger pain than gas refilling.
In reality it will probably just lead the city to spend money on car chargers instead of more useful things like public/alternative transit improvements.
Problem with that is to ditch
Problem with that is to ditch your car you have to have alternatives. Boston isn't the kind of city where everything you need genuinely is within short walk, so with the MBTA being the way it is, people will just suffer through car ownership
I pass one regularly
There's one that I pass by at least a few times a week and especially if it's in the evening it's rare that they aren't mostly occupied if not all being used.
I haven't seen them in the supermarkets I go to and the corporate lot ones are usually just a perk for employees.
Modern fast chargers can get
Modern fast chargers can get you about 150-200 miles of range in about 15-25 minutes. The charge time won't be a barrier to adoption once there are enough EVs on the road. Nothing unfortunately will get people to dump their cars so the lesser evil will always be more EV adoption even if of course it would be better for those cars not to exist in the first place. Full disclosure - I have an EV and an ICE in our house so I am the worst of all worlds
Melrose
Boston should follow Melrose's lead and install pole mounted chargers, we certainly have plenty of poles throughout the city, but municipal lots where they have been installing them thus far are a lot more sparse. People will own cars in Boston, and encouraging EV adoption is a huge win for local pollution, noise, carbon emissions, etc.
There's a bunch of chargers
There's a bunch of chargers in Back Bay, but zero of them are in the residential north half. Are the hysterical historical regulations keeping them out?
Not a problem for just Boston
This is a country wide issue, for cities, suburbs, and rural areas. Right now there is no infrastructure for charging electric cars in this country. You need to build that first and then you encourage people to switch. Cities will present different challenges (there are so few places to park as it is, so how do you provide places to park with charging capabilities).
And EVs cost more than their gas counterparts
Seems like this whole EV push is one of those look we’re green without thinking it through.
and keep in mind how we are currently generating electricity
Using old fashioned fossil fuels (natural gas and coal)
The idea behind EVs is once
The idea behind EVs is once everything - cars, heat, etc - is on electric, you only have to solve ONE problem, which is the greening of the grid. As opposed to figuring out how to greenify thousands of different systems running on different fuels.
Electricity generation isn't 100% via fossil fuels
Currently a decent proportion of our electricity comes from renewable sources, nuclear (can argue pros and cons, but it's carbon neutral), and hydroelectric.
Sure, but
Natural gas fueled more than two-thirds (66%) of Massachusetts' total in-state electricity net generation in 2021.
It did but
It did but
1. EVs are far more efficient in terms of energy used per mile traveled
2. Even if only 30% is renewable it still means that the carbon used per mile is a fraction of that for a traditional ICE car
3. Natural gas is still better than gasoline in environmental terms
I think there will come a time when we will look back at all those cars belching out fumes into our streets and look at it the same way we now look at smoking in airplanes or industrial pollution in cities in the last century.
depends on where you live
New England ISO has a lot of hydro power mixed in. Even with fossil fuels though, there's better remediation of the combustion products and is better regulated at power plants than with cars.
Come now
You know that given the same class of vehicle, the cost over the life of the car is much less for EVs when you include fuel and maintenance.
It doesn't count if you're comparing a Ford Fiesta to E-150.
Oh, really?
https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper...
A Hyundai Kona Electric is 10% more expensive than its gas counterpart - Hyundai Kona - mainly because of the $13k MSRP difference.
Interesting article but wrong comparison
That C&D comparison was for buying the vehicle new and owning it for only 3 years and driving it for a total of 45,000 miles before reselling.
But most cars last 15+ years and will rack up 150,000+ miles.
So using C&D's calculations for this longer duration of time and/or miles driven, the EV ends up being way cheaper when you consider fuel.
You keep saying ‘way cheaper’
And they’re not. In fact, the gas is slightly more expensive - $3500. However, electricity in the city has gone up 50% since October so the EV is actually slightly more expensive using the latest fuel rates. Extrapolating over 15 years using C&D’s electricity rate:
EV (car+maintenance+fuel)
$35,000+($.0794*150,000)+($2548*5) = $59,650
Gas
$22,595+($.0984*150,000)+($5162*5) = $63,165
Depreciation is irrelevant since you’re driving the car into the ground.
You proved my point
The EV is cheaper -- even without the tax credit -- based on the numbers published in the C&D you linked which use actual cost averages as of September of last year.
No one has any idea what will happen to gas and electric prices in the future. Both fluctuate widely.
Does that take into account
Does that take into account replacement battery costs?
I have a 2021 Nissan Leaf that needed a new battery this year. It was under warrenty but if it was out warrenty I would have to pay close to $10K replacement.
That is if I can get a bettery. In January we had to wait two weeks for the dealer to find one on the East Coast. I used a gas loaner for those two weeks, without problem.
The other problem with this
The other problem with this calculation is the length of car ownership. EV Battery technology is evolving at a rapid pace. Next Gen cars will have vastly different battery technology than cars today. Will automakers in 2030 support battery production for a 2021 EV? Would it even be practicial to own an EV for 15 years?
The other problem with electric charging stations is the lack of industry EV standards. Each car may have a different charging standard that would prevent universal charging stations from broadly becoming useful.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/ev-battery-swapping-how-is-this-a-good-idea
You have to add battery
You have to add battery capacity over time in your 15 year total cost calculation.
After 6 years a 2019 Leaf battery is at an average of 86% full charge. That a 14% reduction. Take that over 12 years and you have a 28% linear reduction. Now it can only charge to 72%.
The typical Leaf warranty is for 8 years. If you plan to keep your car for 15 years you will want to buy another battery for an additional $10K. That cost should be added to the overall cost of the car. Unless you plan to drive less between charges as the car ages.
2019 leaf has a range of 226 miles. After 12 years that range is 126 miles.
https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/
Lets not forget all the jobs
Lets not forget all the jobs that EV batteries are creating in the Congo.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-coba...
We can feel smug cutting down our own pollution due to the 6 year old slaves mining cobalt in Africa.
We can also talk about the mines and environmental disaster that mining raw materials for solar panels. But again, that is all done in those countries and not in our backyard so once again not problem for us:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/charlie-hoffs/mining-raw-materials-for-solar-pan...
Hey Uyghur slaves need jobs too.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/29/evidence-grows-of-fo...
And for those who say that due to the US ban on products produced by slave labor, ya the US is ignoring it globally, and two China sends their products to Vietnam and slaps a new label on it.
But no human rights abuses
But no human rights abuses occur in other countries due to the production of internal combustion cars and their components, or the extraction of oil.
Thermal efficiency
The thing is EVs really are much better as far as converting an energy source into driving, which is the goal right? Internal combustion engines convert about 20% (maybe 30%, if they're really really good) of energy in gas to driving power, the rest is just waste heat. Add on top of that idling and they're even worse. EVs are more like 70-90% because electric motors are just really good at converting electrons into motion. When electric motors stop, they don't continue to waste energy. If we can solve the cost problem and mining/material sourcing problem, they're worth encouraging, even if we have 100% coal fired power plants. They won't be for everybody or every personal situation, but they also don't need to be to be a positive change.
“[The] other thing that we
“[The] other thing that we hear from folks in the community is that often new charging stations or updates in a park or a playground or a fancier T station even is going to mean that property values will increase, that whiter and wealthier folks will move in and that the community will be displaced,” Owen said.
That's an interesting twist on anti-gentrification sentiment. It's one thing to oppose building fancier housing. But if she had her way, parks and T stations in minority and low-income neighborhoods should not get any updates? Let's just let things fall to pieces so fewer people will want to live there. That's a great way to address housing costs and show we care!
Chargers aren’t the problem
Lack of parking spaces is the problem.