But seriously: our transit service sucks not necessarily because the workers do a bad job (although in this case they certainly did) but because Verizon can't be bothered to actually fix the infrastructure we depend on.
Verizon sucks.
Also, it must be a special day because I agree with Markk about something!
(But seriously, Mark, are you sure it wasn't a bicyclist's fault?)
i would still look to the commonwealth for answers first, for a few reasons.
A) its their transit system. they're the ones that put verizon in charge of it, presumably. the buck stops with them
B) we have no idea what roadblocks (if any, just acknowledging its a possibility) the state might have put with regards to them actually even doing the repair.
tl;dr if the state runs a transit system they know isnt safe and needs to be repaired it isnt verizons fault that that line is running without repairs.
yep, let's presume the state is blocking them from making repairs; not that Verizon is letting all of its copper line infrastructure fall apart (which is known for a fact to be occurring).
Verizon repair and constriction crews do not work at night. Only a small skeleton crew is on call for certain special emergencies. Otherwise it's a next-day (or next week) fix for you. Given that cable work can only be done at night after the last trains run and power can be shut down, you only have a few hours of opportunity per evening to do the work. It would also require Verizon to assemble a special crew on OT for the job. Then winter is on the way. Don't hold your breath.
If Verizon can't get the job done (be it because of no night work, or exiting the copper business) then the state should not be contracting with them. What are we paying them for then? It's like Verizon was given a no-show job.
If the copper is owned by Verizon.. you can switch carriers if you want but unless that new carrier is going to pull wire (which is unlikely), you're still bound by Verizon regardless of where your bill or dialtone come from.
I 100% agree with anon's statement. Yes Verizon is totally neglecting their copper network in this state, and it would not be surprising at all to me that they are the reason for the delay, not the state.
And roadman, Like Ari said, its for their 'expertise' and I'm sure it's been like that for a very long time. It's a hold over from a time when anything communication based you went to the phone company for, even government applications like this. And considering that branch was built prior to the break up of AT&T in 1984, it wouldn't surprise me that they contracted with the phone company to manage it. It's just what you did. Back then, the PSTN was very reliable, and usually more reliable than any private networks out there at the time. It just made sense back then, and probably was far cheaper than installing and managing your own private network.
Plus I'm sure it worked out well for both parties.. the T got a hands off approach to managing a complex network, and the phone company got access to the T's tunnels for (easy) wiring. (the subway tunnels have tons of communication wires in them).
Of course decades later.. we're in a pickle now because the network is still be managed by the same phone company (of course with many buyouts/mergers later), but that phone company (Verizon) doesn't care anymore about its copper network, which causes problems like this.
As a business customer of Verizon at companies, I can attest that they do not care about their copper network at all, and it takes jumping thru hoops getting any wireline service fixed or installed. They just do not care.
The sad part is that the signaling system is probably so old, it has to use the PSTN (copper) network. Without some sort of major overhaul to upgrade the system to move it to IP or some other newer technology, you're pretty much stuck. Yeah the T can switch providers (i.e. Windstream, etc), but the physical copper is still owned and managed by Verizon, but your 'dialtone' comes from someone else.
Is the T's fault, Yes and no. Yes because they should move to a more modern system that doesn't rely on the PSTN so much. And No, because if it worked well for decades on the PSTN, why switch unless you really have to and avoid a costly upgrade.
(of course this is all hypothetical.. and an educated guess by someone who's worked with telecom for decades)
I've built industrial control systems with signalling over IP. The same equipment (I used Allen-Bradley) can be made to work over copper pair, ethernet, or either one converted to fiber-optic, which still needs to be a dedicated leased line since you don't want the subway signals to be DDOS'd by some basement dweller with a Guy Fawkes mask.
The cost per node is reasonable for a large installation (on the order a few hundred to a few thousand), and it's reasonably quick to do in stages if, and this is a huge if with the T, you have someone who knows what they're doing.
I know verizon doesn't want to fix their copper, but presumably they, or someone else, can be convinced to lay down fiber in the same conduit. All it takes is compentent technical management. But if the current best approximation for that at the T is to tie down the throttle lever and hope for the best, then it ain't happening.
I've had the misfortune of working with people who were in way over their heads and didn't have an fing clue, so I can tell the signs. The T is giving off those pheromones something fierce.
however, this is the T we're talking about. A transit agency that has been over its heads with debt for decades. You're talking about a multi-million dollar upgrade here, money the T just simply does not have. And besides, if its worked relatively well for decades, why change? Its the same deal why many companies still have Centrex from the phone company. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
I think I was trying to make two points with my post above, one which was why Verizon after so many years still manages the network, and the other is why the T has done nothing to improve the network.
I'm not sticking up for the T, but history of the phone company and how it relates to business services can explain why it is away. And why nothing has been done.
And please... getting Verizon to pull fiber optic cable? Sure it can be done, but whether the LEC wants to do so or not is the real issue here because they have to pay for it. Verizon just doesn't want to pay for it. Ask anyone who has problems with their DSL service, or even better, ask a business who has issues with their service how quickly Verizon does a repair (it's not quick), should give you the answer to how much they wanna upgrade their network (they don't).
Plus you're making it sound like "Well the T has no idea what they are doing" and you're correct about that. That is why they farmed out to the LEC. Along with the costs of upgrades, do you think the T has the manpower or the will to hire tons of technical people to manage this network? No they don't. This is why it was farmed out to the phone company decades ago, so they don't have to pay highly technical people to manage it. They hand it to the LEC to manage. Its was probably easier and more cost effective to do so at the time than to hire and retain talent. It makes total sense why it was done this way. You, as a technical person, may think "oh this is easy stuff to fix", but to companies, such as the T, where they aren't technically savvy, you'll soon realize why it was farmed out to somewhere else.
I get what you are saying, but again we're talking about two Goliath's here.. a broke transit agency that isn't technically savvy, and a phone company who doesn't care about their wireline network anymore.
It is a well-established fact that Verizon is working diligently to get out of the copper wire business and go all wireless. You can get hordes of data on this at "DSL Reports." They have been systematically been selling off entire copper wire networks for a couple of years now. ME, NH, and VT are long gone and part of western MA. A number of other states around the Great Lakes region are also gone. More recently they dropped all of California - yes California.
Much of this is being sold off to Fairpoint Communications that is now struggling to maintain a very neglected copper wire system.
Verizon is only keeping those copper networks they find to be profitable but hardly maintaining them. If you have DSL don't let it go. As DSL customers drop out and try other services and seek to come back they will find there are no DSL lines available. It is no longer a one out, one in system.
And you can forget FIOS in Boston. Verizon was also very public about no longer laying any new fibre lines, anywhere. They will only build out where existing trunks exist, so suffer through all those TV ads for FIOS, unless your town already has fibre you are SOL. Boston can go suck an egg.
After the big hurricanes that devastated the NY and NJ shores, due to deregulation, Verizon was not required to rebuild any of the copper wire infrastructure that was lost. Instead they put in cell towers and offered people a black box to connect to their home phones essentially turning the home phone into a cell phone. However that was voice only. If you wanted internet it was another wireless device and more money, so they are easily sucking those poor people dry. Too bad about the natural disaster by the way.
So if it turns out Verizon is responsible for a broken cable and there are no more wires available, assuming this is true, I am not surprised. I'll also bet that the contract says if it goes bad they don't have to fix it, so the T may have to hire a wire company to string all new cables.
Lets see in 24 hours we have been fed stories about sabotage and FBI investigations when that failed we are being told of heroic dispatchers who saved the day. We are told stories every day about the great camera system so release the video's from the Braintree platform and let the public know exactly what happened.
if Bev Scott was still in the top spot, all you'd get is some down-home folksiness and spin about needing more funding. Actual facts about systematic problems would be systematically swept under the rug. At least now some concrete information is getting out.
We are confident that this is an isolated incident
In such a short amount of time, how could he possibly be confident it's not just one red flag, signaling the Ⓣ's overall inability to operate the system in a competent manner?
Comments
Verizon's fault
Seems its a bad cable Verizon is responsible for and hasn't fixed resulting in train engineers to use the unsafe procedures to get around the broken wire:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/3wfh9g/governor_baker_seems_to_...
Wow, Verizon?
I mean, Comcast, I wouldn't have been surprised.
But seriously: our transit service sucks not necessarily because the workers do a bad job (although in this case they certainly did) but because Verizon can't be bothered to actually fix the infrastructure we depend on.
Verizon sucks.
Also, it must be a special day because I agree with Markk about something!
(But seriously, Mark, are you sure it wasn't a bicyclist's fault?)
Why is Verizon responsible for
the infrastructure controlling a safety critical system such as the MBTA's train signalling in the first place?
Because, ostensibly
Verizon's expertise is in such infrastructure.
verizon or not
i would still look to the commonwealth for answers first, for a few reasons.
A) its their transit system. they're the ones that put verizon in charge of it, presumably. the buck stops with them
B) we have no idea what roadblocks (if any, just acknowledging its a possibility) the state might have put with regards to them actually even doing the repair.
tl;dr if the state runs a transit system they know isnt safe and needs to be repaired it isnt verizons fault that that line is running without repairs.
yep, let's presume the state
yep, let's presume the state is blocking them from making repairs; not that Verizon is letting all of its copper line infrastructure fall apart (which is known for a fact to be occurring).
Here's a clue
Verizon repair and constriction crews do not work at night. Only a small skeleton crew is on call for certain special emergencies. Otherwise it's a next-day (or next week) fix for you. Given that cable work can only be done at night after the last trains run and power can be shut down, you only have a few hours of opportunity per evening to do the work. It would also require Verizon to assemble a special crew on OT for the job. Then winter is on the way. Don't hold your breath.
Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.
If Verizon can't get the job done (be it because of no night work, or exiting the copper business) then the state should not be contracting with them. What are we paying them for then? It's like Verizon was given a no-show job.
I'm all ears
I'm all ears to know who should do it?
If the copper is owned by Verizon.. you can switch carriers if you want but unless that new carrier is going to pull wire (which is unlikely), you're still bound by Verizon regardless of where your bill or dialtone come from.
No
I 100% agree with anon's statement. Yes Verizon is totally neglecting their copper network in this state, and it would not be surprising at all to me that they are the reason for the delay, not the state.
And roadman, Like Ari said, its for their 'expertise' and I'm sure it's been like that for a very long time. It's a hold over from a time when anything communication based you went to the phone company for, even government applications like this. And considering that branch was built prior to the break up of AT&T in 1984, it wouldn't surprise me that they contracted with the phone company to manage it. It's just what you did. Back then, the PSTN was very reliable, and usually more reliable than any private networks out there at the time. It just made sense back then, and probably was far cheaper than installing and managing your own private network.
Plus I'm sure it worked out well for both parties.. the T got a hands off approach to managing a complex network, and the phone company got access to the T's tunnels for (easy) wiring. (the subway tunnels have tons of communication wires in them).
Of course decades later.. we're in a pickle now because the network is still be managed by the same phone company (of course with many buyouts/mergers later), but that phone company (Verizon) doesn't care anymore about its copper network, which causes problems like this.
As a business customer of Verizon at companies, I can attest that they do not care about their copper network at all, and it takes jumping thru hoops getting any wireline service fixed or installed. They just do not care.
The sad part is that the signaling system is probably so old, it has to use the PSTN (copper) network. Without some sort of major overhaul to upgrade the system to move it to IP or some other newer technology, you're pretty much stuck. Yeah the T can switch providers (i.e. Windstream, etc), but the physical copper is still owned and managed by Verizon, but your 'dialtone' comes from someone else.
Is the T's fault, Yes and no. Yes because they should move to a more modern system that doesn't rely on the PSTN so much. And No, because if it worked well for decades on the PSTN, why switch unless you really have to and avoid a costly upgrade.
(of course this is all hypothetical.. and an educated guess by someone who's worked with telecom for decades)
No excuse for not being on top
of each and every component of the subway.
I've built industrial control systems with signalling over IP. The same equipment (I used Allen-Bradley) can be made to work over copper pair, ethernet, or either one converted to fiber-optic, which still needs to be a dedicated leased line since you don't want the subway signals to be DDOS'd by some basement dweller with a Guy Fawkes mask.
The cost per node is reasonable for a large installation (on the order a few hundred to a few thousand), and it's reasonably quick to do in stages if, and this is a huge if with the T, you have someone who knows what they're doing.
I know verizon doesn't want to fix their copper, but presumably they, or someone else, can be convinced to lay down fiber in the same conduit. All it takes is compentent technical management. But if the current best approximation for that at the T is to tie down the throttle lever and hope for the best, then it ain't happening.
I've had the misfortune of working with people who were in way over their heads and didn't have an fing clue, so I can tell the signs. The T is giving off those pheromones something fierce.
You're right
however, this is the T we're talking about. A transit agency that has been over its heads with debt for decades. You're talking about a multi-million dollar upgrade here, money the T just simply does not have. And besides, if its worked relatively well for decades, why change? Its the same deal why many companies still have Centrex from the phone company. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
I think I was trying to make two points with my post above, one which was why Verizon after so many years still manages the network, and the other is why the T has done nothing to improve the network.
I'm not sticking up for the T, but history of the phone company and how it relates to business services can explain why it is away. And why nothing has been done.
And please... getting Verizon to pull fiber optic cable? Sure it can be done, but whether the LEC wants to do so or not is the real issue here because they have to pay for it. Verizon just doesn't want to pay for it. Ask anyone who has problems with their DSL service, or even better, ask a business who has issues with their service how quickly Verizon does a repair (it's not quick), should give you the answer to how much they wanna upgrade their network (they don't).
Plus you're making it sound like "Well the T has no idea what they are doing" and you're correct about that. That is why they farmed out to the LEC. Along with the costs of upgrades, do you think the T has the manpower or the will to hire tons of technical people to manage this network? No they don't. This is why it was farmed out to the phone company decades ago, so they don't have to pay highly technical people to manage it. They hand it to the LEC to manage. Its was probably easier and more cost effective to do so at the time than to hire and retain talent. It makes total sense why it was done this way. You, as a technical person, may think "oh this is easy stuff to fix", but to companies, such as the T, where they aren't technically savvy, you'll soon realize why it was farmed out to somewhere else.
I get what you are saying, but again we're talking about two Goliath's here.. a broke transit agency that isn't technically savvy, and a phone company who doesn't care about their wireline network anymore.
Well established
It is a well-established fact that Verizon is working diligently to get out of the copper wire business and go all wireless. You can get hordes of data on this at "DSL Reports." They have been systematically been selling off entire copper wire networks for a couple of years now. ME, NH, and VT are long gone and part of western MA. A number of other states around the Great Lakes region are also gone. More recently they dropped all of California - yes California.
Much of this is being sold off to Fairpoint Communications that is now struggling to maintain a very neglected copper wire system.
Verizon is only keeping those copper networks they find to be profitable but hardly maintaining them. If you have DSL don't let it go. As DSL customers drop out and try other services and seek to come back they will find there are no DSL lines available. It is no longer a one out, one in system.
And you can forget FIOS in Boston. Verizon was also very public about no longer laying any new fibre lines, anywhere. They will only build out where existing trunks exist, so suffer through all those TV ads for FIOS, unless your town already has fibre you are SOL. Boston can go suck an egg.
After the big hurricanes that devastated the NY and NJ shores, due to deregulation, Verizon was not required to rebuild any of the copper wire infrastructure that was lost. Instead they put in cell towers and offered people a black box to connect to their home phones essentially turning the home phone into a cell phone. However that was voice only. If you wanted internet it was another wireless device and more money, so they are easily sucking those poor people dry. Too bad about the natural disaster by the way.
So if it turns out Verizon is responsible for a broken cable and there are no more wires available, assuming this is true, I am not surprised. I'll also bet that the contract says if it goes bad they don't have to fix it, so the T may have to hire a wire company to string all new cables.
Imagine how bad it would be
Imagine how bad it would be if Charlie hadn't fixed the T.
Fixed
That term has other connotations than "repaired".
T-Lies
Lets see in 24 hours we have been fed stories about sabotage and FBI investigations when that failed we are being told of heroic dispatchers who saved the day. We are told stories every day about the great camera system so release the video's from the Braintree platform and let the public know exactly what happened.
Baker lies.
Remember the fisherman story? It's how he rolls.
Where's Beverly Scott to kick around?
The
bucktrain stops at the Governor's desk.Good point
if Bev Scott was still in the top spot, all you'd get is some down-home folksiness and spin about needing more funding. Actual facts about systematic problems would be systematically swept under the rug. At least now some concrete information is getting out.
But The Governor's Words Indicate He's Still Totally Clueless
In such a short amount of time, how could he possibly be confident it's not just one red flag, signaling the Ⓣ's overall inability to operate the system in a competent manner?
Probably routine.
Guy on reddit makes a good point that what the T operator did is most likely a routine practice.
https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/3wfh9g/governor_baker_seems_to_...
Makes sense to me. I don't trust the "isolated incident" nonsense.
The "isolated" part
is that the train got away this time.
duplicate, delete please
duplicate, delete please