The Outraged Liberal explains why we're no longer all that highly taxed and why the ballot question to end the state income tax will actually accelerate the number of people fleeing Massachusetts.
The idea of abolishing the state income tax is a shell game, really. What the state lost in income tax it would have to make up with other revenues, such as fees. The overall burden on us wouldn't go down; it would just be shifted. It would be a benefit for those with the most income taxed, and a loss for everybody else.
Some of the dingbats on the right, like Jeff Jacoby at the Globe, imagine that "Eliminating the state income tax would reduce government spending by about $11 billion, shrinking the budget to its 1995 level."
Sure, abolishing the state income tax would be like sprinkling magic pixie dust on the budget! Er, maybe not. The state would still have the same budget obligations it did before, such as rebuilding roads and bridges and funding schools and police ... you know, services. It would just have to find that money somewhere else. Where? As Jacoby says,
corporate income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, meals taxes, hotel taxes, excise taxes, workers' compensation taxes, estate taxes, capital gains taxes, gasoline taxes, cigarette taxes, wine and liquor taxes, motor vehicle taxes, and real estate transfer taxes, not to mention the taxes ("license fees") imposed on a vast array of professions and occupations
So do you want higher gasoline taxes? Just abolish the income tax. Do you want higher property, meals, excise, liquor, etc. taxes? Just abolish the income tax. Unless you're innumerate enough to fall for Jacoby's voodoo math, we can make a rational choice about how you want to pay for the services we all demand. Personally, I think the state income tax is working fine. I think we get great service value for our money, especially in Boston.
Your point on reduced spending is a good one. If the idea behind abolishing the income tax is that it will somehow force lower spending, think again. Massachusetts is not New Hampshire. In addition to a different ethos towards spending, Massachusetts is a more densly populated urbanized state than New Hampshire with a greater need for services. You could elimenate those services (education, fire, police, libraries, roads, harbors, parks, low-income assistance, public housing, public transportation, etc.) but I think the likely result, at least for the eastern part of the state, is social unrest or, at best, flight of the affluent (but not super rich) to other states with better services/quality of life. I certainly hope that anyone viting to abolish the income tax doesn't think its going be a free ride. I agree with you final comment as well, we get a pretty good bank for the buck from our taxes in Mass., although its certainly not perfect.
You don't pay income tax, you just pay through the nose for everything you get included with your taxes here - like trash collection, like tolls on every big road, etc. Then you pay through the nose for your property taxes, too.
They still don't have their school funding straightened out, either.
Minor thing, but trash collection isn't tied to state revenues, at least not directly. It's a local issue, and some towns do charge fees for trash pickup, through stickers you have to put on your bags (which both generates revenue and, theoretically, anyway, makes people recycle more).
Of course, if cities and towns lost state revenue tied to the income tax, I have no doubt we'd see pretty much every community impose these fees.
When Bush cut revenues to the states from the federal government, state taxes went up across the country. When the state government has a huge revenue shortfall because the income tax is taken away, it will stop many payments to the towns or cities. Towns and cities will then have to make their budgets good somehow. They'll do this by raising fees and taxes on those things they control, like trash collection. I think this is called trickle-down economics.
If there's a better than 50% chance of passing the measure to eliminate income tax as the auhtor suggests this is the first I have heard of it. Moreover, its a terrible idea. The class inequality issue aside, ask anyone who has moved to NH and purchased a house how much they pay overall in taxes and it turns out to be just about the same as in Mass. Getting rid of the income tax doesn't get rid of taxes, it just shifts the tax burden to a different place - property tax. As the property tax burden already appears to be a huge issue for people in Mass. I'm not sure why we would want to do something that would be guaranteed to increase that burden. Getting back to the class inequality issue, the only winners when the income tax is abolished are the very wealthy who now have a comparatively high percentage of their income consumed by income tax, but who pay property tax based on whatever house they chose to live in. Remove the income tax and they are left paying only their property taxes like their next door neighbors regardless of how much money their next door neighbors take home in a pay check. Not a great idea.
How can a rise in property taxes be seen as a shift of burden to the poor? The poor - and some of the middle class, such as me - don't own property.
If it means a higher sales tax, then the burden will be shifted to those who purchase more; again, those with higher incomes.
I really can't think of an instance where the proportionate share of tax wouldn't actually be higher for those with more income, should a deficit need to be made up.
I'm not saying that there would be instant legislative utopia upon passage, but I think it would at least be worth a look to see just how the General Court would manage given a more limited feeding trough.
And, for the record, the last time this proposal was on the ballot, it received somewhere in the neighborhood of a 45% vote for "Yes", so imagining a 50% or better approval now is no big stretch.
Because it means fees for everything - including basic services that are subsidized by the leveling impact of income tax. The less well-heeled also pay a higher percentage of their income in income taxes on basic stuff. MA doesn't charge food or clothing taxes, but there are dozens of other needs that are taxed. Such as tampons. Figure that one out for equity!
(Which of course would just be passed down to you, the renter, as higher rent). It's not just sales tax either. It's the other taxes and fees. How much do you pay in excise tax on your car? Like to see that doubled? How much do you pay to renew a license? Like to see that tripled? Resident parking sticker, anybody? Gonna cost you. Oh, you think they should take the trash from in front of your house? Or that you should get clean municipal water from your tap? How about you pay some more for that? Gotten a parking ticket lately? Was it over a hundred bucks? Ever put something on your curb that wasn't just household trash? (I have! Ain't Boston grand?) How about that school bus your kid rides... how much does that cost you now? And can we talk for a moment about tolls?
We do things all day long that are state-supported and we assume should be free or at least nominal in cost. I've lived in states where they are much more creative about finding ways to make you pay for them.
The way this burden would end up being passed down the income scale is that right now it basically affects all your personal income over X. Many people don't reach X at all. But those people still have to shop, still have to get driver's licenses, still need their trash picked up, and would still like their kids to go to school. All those things that everybody does, which the state is involved in to some extent, would have to step up as opportunities for the state to make up the lost revenue.
One of the arguments frequently made by "conservatives" is that a large bureaucracy is required to collect income tax. This is true... but... imagine the bureaucracy that would be required to soak you for the same amount in a death of a thousand cuts rather than one fell swoop. Bigger or smaller?
To begin, I know this can get messy. You people are all nice, and I hope you think the same of me. I'll try to remember that, and I hope you will, also, as we carve each other up :-)
You take as a given what I don't. That is, that the entity known as the state will have no option other than to soak us in some other way. I believe that it is quite possible to remove waste to the extent that an income tax is no longer needed, and the concurrent rise in other taxes (or fees) will be less than imagined.
(Of course, we probably differ greatly in what we believe to be "waste". No argument there.)
I will say that I'd like to somehow see an EXACT budgetary recommendation to go along with the proposal.
The people who are proposing this tax cut have a responsibility to give us a detailed description of exactly what state services they would like to cut, and how much they now cost, in order to match the cut in revenue. Tell us which bridges should not be repaired, which transit lines should be shut down, which schools should close, which hospitals should no longer receive subsidies, etc.
The republicans and democrats in congress just love to pass laws that don't include raising federal income taxes and other taxes. They much prefer to tell the states that they have to implement a particular program to particular standards AND pay for it.
In other words, get used to Storrow Swamp and more collapsing bridges, tunnels, roadways, parks, and anything else that state money buys that isn't federally mandated.
Roll back taxes and services of all kinds will inevitably be cut...by quite a bit. This is why Prop 2 1/2 was such a disaster.
Also, many businesses have fled north to New Hampshire, or even South, due to lower taxes. The states with lower taxes also have fewer social services, etc., too.
I can conceive that state government could be smaller. That's a reasonable goal or postulate.
However, what appears to me to be absolutely untenable is the theory that if you just stop paying income taxes, this will necessarily and immediately occur.
If you want to reduce the size of the state government, go for it. I, for one, promise to vote for you, because I know you from this site as a reasonable and intelligent person.
If you got elected to state office, then maybe you could participate in the difficult choices that would be involved in reducing the state budget by 11B. Shall we do without mental health (for 651M), or shall we do without libraries (31M)? Shall we do without elder affairs (226M) or shall we do without encironmental affairs (208M). Shall we default on state pensions (1.3B)? Shall we close all the state colleges and universities? (1B)
Sure, the budget could be reduced -- every one of the things the state budget pays for could be considered for reduction. It's a matter of our collective choices whether we want the state to support preschool or road maintenance.
But there's no magic wand. It's a fallacy to say that abolishing the income tax reduces the state budget. That's as ridiculous as saying that if you lose your job you don't have to pay rent anymore.
With your assertion that I'm a reasonable and intelligent person :-)
(Same can be said of you, of course.)
No, actually, I agree insofar as "no magic wand" is concerned. Certainly, there will have to be serious debate concerning which programs, services, etc., are to be cut. I think the most positive thing that would come out of a tax elimination such as this would be that debate. I think it's way beyond time for many voters in this state to start actually having to think about where their money is going.
I don't want to get bogged down in ideology here, by arguing for or against certain items you've mentioned, but my belief is that private charitable concerns can handle some of the social service needs being handled today by the state, and do so in a more efficient manner.
I'm not so doctrinaire in my libertarianism that I believe an abolition of, for instance, fire departments or police is in any way feasible. However, many sanitation services can certainly be handled for a fee that isn't likely to break anyone.
I adore the libraries available in this state, but there are plenty of places without a public library system that get along just fine via privately funded libraries with materials available to the public.
I'd be happy to have a chance to go over the budget with a fine tooth comb and suggest areas to cut. I ran for state rep in '92 and, if a minor miracle had occurred and I had beaten Finneran, that's what I would have been doing. I only wish you had been there to vote for me :-)
Not strictly pertinent to what we've been discussing so far, but my feeling is that if the legislature hadn't so blatantly ignored the previous referendum, wherein they were instructed to cut state income tax to a flat 5% over the course of three years, there wouldn't be nearly as strong a support for this current draconian slashing. Some of us think the only way to get them to listen is to gut it completely.
People used the same logic as Suldog - and look what happened! We are STILL living with that legacy in poorly run city governments.
As far as I'm concerned, we have the wrong target and tactics. The real problems are 1)lack of transparency in government and 2)archaic constitutional stipulation that fees and taxes (e.g. gas tax) are not linked to the services they are supposed to fund. The result is a legislature that sees a pot of money and spends as it has to or sees fit and doesn't maintain infrastructure like it should, guts the universities but raises tuition, doesn't tie revenues to services, etc.
Eliminating income tax does nothing for either of these problems. Amending the constitution to bring the taxes closer to their intended funding targets would do wonders for the way the legislature spends. Forcing the legislature to be more transparent in the ways it funds large projects would advance that end.
Meanwhile, I may leave if this goes through. Prop 2 1/2's gigantic brown streak of an impact on the livability of Mass is a cakewalk compared to the kind of massive shithole this place will become.
If the government were more transparent, there would be fewer folks like me calling for it to be (not literally, feds, not literally) blown up. And, yes, fees and taxes should be strictly tied to specific services.
Eliminating the tax does not directly do anything to affect those situations.
I don't get the correlation between poorly run city governments and Prop 2 1/2. Perhaps you mean that city governments aren't providing what you think they should, in terms of services to constituents? That would be a matter of opinion, of course, so I won't argue that with you.
I'd be interested to understand why you believe that government services can be provided by private contractors at the same, or presumably lower, cost and with the same quality. The federal government has been outsourcing for almost a decade now (if not more) and the GAO recently issued a report (which I frustratingly can't find) indicating that it does not save the fed. any money and may, in fact, cost more. I don't think that anyone would disagree with you that certain services provided in Mass. are run by bloated patronage hold-overs from yesteryear (MBTA) that have grossly inefficient benefits systems, etc. but I don't think that is a claim that can be made as to all services. What are your thoughts?
(I'm sure it was just a typo, but who am I to pass up the opportunity to begin with a snide remark? :-) )
I don't believe I said private contractors, although that may reasonably have been inferred. I believe I said private charitable concerns in one place, and I expect those organizations to have no connection to the government whatsoever. Similarly, I expect no private contractors - such as in sanitation removal services - to have any contracting status with the government, either. I'm not talking in any way, shape, or form about outsourcing. I'm sorry if I inadvertently gave that impression.
Some services are run in a very efficient fashion by government. I can't think of any right off the top of my head. That's not a joke - I really can't. However, they are there and I acknowledge them. It's just that I have actual work to do today and I've gone on at length here way too long to be effective at what I need to be doing.
It is possible that removing most of the state's budget would be an inducement to reduce expenditures. It is also unlikely that the reduction in expenditures could match the reduction in revenues. The difference would be made up with debt.
If the state suddenly came up 11B short, it would undoubtedly have to slash the budget. It would also probably not be able to eliminate the 11B immediately. Even if most of the firefighters, teachers, social workers, and police in the state were fired immediately (after all, that is what you are suggesting here), the state would still have termination costs, unemployment costs, and pension costs for them, as well as physical plant and sunk costs.
The shortfall would be made up, as always, by borrowing. That borrowing would be very expensive, as the state's credit rating would have plummeted when its revenue disappeared.
Once the income tax was reinstated (as I would imagine to be likely once people realized nobody was answering the phone at the police station any more, that whole blocks would burn before any firefighters showed up, and that they had to shovel their own damn streets now) the state would be in hock for tens of billions of dollars at a lousy rate, and the cost of deferred maintenance would also be great. The net result of the libertarian experiment would be an increase in taxes -- just as the net result of Bush's pissing the surplus into the sand in Iraq will be us passing on higher taxes to our children.
The problem here is a conflict between two different definitions of fiscal conservative. You have the faith-based fiscal conservative - who says cut taxes by all means necessary, and leave the future in God's hands (i.e. devil take the hindmost). And you have the reality-based fiscal conservative, who says let's do the math, compromise, and make sure we balance the budget.
State finance has some things in common with household finance. Saying we can abolish the income tax and this will lead to financial responsibility is much like saying you can quit your job and this will lead to lower expenses. Sure, it will -- you'll get kicked out of your apartment for non-payment, and end up somewhere cheaper eventually, and you won't be eating out much anymore. And, of course, you'll have huge credit card bills to pay off for the next decade. Was something really saved there?
Myself, I'd rather just be responsible in the short term, on both household and government levels. I expect my government officials to balance their checkbooks, just like I balance mine. If they can do that on 11B less a year, bully for them. But the name on their credit card is mine, and if they run it up, I have no illusions over who will have to pay it off. I'd much rather they didn't play silly buggers with a great libertarian experiment that would cost me more money in the long term.
I'm sorry. I'm going to give you short shrift here. It's not because of any dislike, or out-of-hand dismissal of your arguments, but rather because you were the third one I'm responding to, and I have to get back to my real job.
I specifically said I did NOT want to eliminate fire, police, and other personnel such as you cite. You seem to state that we would have to do so. I disagree. Unless we have concrete figures in front of us, I'm afraid we're both making statements that can't readily be proven or disproven in this forum. Would you agree?
Let's go to a point I totally agree with you on: Yes, if they would not operate with deficit spending, I would have far less problem with the government. Perhaps we can just be happily in agreement on that as we go into the long weekend? :-)
FYI, you can find the kind of numbers you want here.
Out of the 27B budgeted, approximately 20B goes to education, health care, and public safety/law.
If you want to squeeze 11B out of the budget, it really is a question of whether you want to fire the teachers, the health workers, or the cops and judges.
Somehow, Florida and Texas do it. Florida and Texas are gaining population from northeastern states. Massachusetts is losing population to Florida and Texas. Simple.
If somebody really wants to live in Florida or Texas instead of our lovely Commonwealth, let me be the first to say good riddance. They'll find the highest effective propety taxes in the country in Texas, and the highest insurance costs in Florida.
Massachusetts isn't losing population to Florida and Texas, it's just not growing at the same rate. However, Massachusetts, despite being one of the smallest states land area wise, is ranked 13th in population. Also, are people choosing Florida and Texas for the tax situation alone, or is it that they are following the larger demographic trend of the last decade of people moving from cold weather areas into warm weather areas?
I think the greater question that this ballot questions presents us with is: What should be the role of government?
If you ask me our state government does far too much. It regulates nearly every possible industry in can think of. It is not structured well, either. Examples? There are several different departments that handle highways, roads and bridges.
Do we want a state government that is invasive, structurally flawed, and anti-business? Or a limited state government that takes a hands off approach and lets people live their lives without constant interference?
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Comments
Shell game
The idea of abolishing the state income tax is a shell game, really. What the state lost in income tax it would have to make up with other revenues, such as fees. The overall burden on us wouldn't go down; it would just be shifted. It would be a benefit for those with the most income taxed, and a loss for everybody else.
Some of the dingbats on the right, like Jeff Jacoby at the Globe, imagine that "Eliminating the state income tax would reduce government spending by about $11 billion, shrinking the budget to its 1995 level."
Sure, abolishing the state income tax would be like sprinkling magic pixie dust on the budget! Er, maybe not. The state would still have the same budget obligations it did before, such as rebuilding roads and bridges and funding schools and police ... you know, services. It would just have to find that money somewhere else. Where? As Jacoby says,
So do you want higher gasoline taxes? Just abolish the income tax. Do you want higher property, meals, excise, liquor, etc. taxes? Just abolish the income tax. Unless you're innumerate enough to fall for Jacoby's voodoo math, we can make a rational choice about how you want to pay for the services we all demand. Personally, I think the state income tax is working fine. I think we get great service value for our money, especially in Boston.
Good Point
Your point on reduced spending is a good one. If the idea behind abolishing the income tax is that it will somehow force lower spending, think again. Massachusetts is not New Hampshire. In addition to a different ethos towards spending, Massachusetts is a more densly populated urbanized state than New Hampshire with a greater need for services. You could elimenate those services (education, fire, police, libraries, roads, harbors, parks, low-income assistance, public housing, public transportation, etc.) but I think the likely result, at least for the eastern part of the state, is social unrest or, at best, flight of the affluent (but not super rich) to other states with better services/quality of life. I certainly hope that anyone viting to abolish the income tax doesn't think its going be a free ride. I agree with you final comment as well, we get a pretty good bank for the buck from our taxes in Mass., although its certainly not perfect.
New Hampshire
You don't pay income tax, you just pay through the nose for everything you get included with your taxes here - like trash collection, like tolls on every big road, etc. Then you pay through the nose for your property taxes, too.
They still don't have their school funding straightened out, either.
Trash collection
Minor thing, but trash collection isn't tied to state revenues, at least not directly. It's a local issue, and some towns do charge fees for trash pickup, through stickers you have to put on your bags (which both generates revenue and, theoretically, anyway, makes people recycle more).
Of course, if cities and towns lost state revenue tied to the income tax, I have no doubt we'd see pretty much every community impose these fees.
Trickle-down economics
When Bush cut revenues to the states from the federal government, state taxes went up across the country. When the state government has a huge revenue shortfall because the income tax is taken away, it will stop many payments to the towns or cities. Towns and cities will then have to make their budgets good somehow. They'll do this by raising fees and taxes on those things they control, like trash collection. I think this is called trickle-down economics.
You mean...
... trickle-down economics actually works???
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Only in a backwards way
Removing revenue sources at a higher level makes tax burdens trickle down. That's been shown.
Unfortunately, the initial idea of "trickle-down" (aka voodoo economics) was something different - which hasn't worked.
Jacoby doesn't even live in
Jacoby doesn't even live in MA.
What's Mass. coming to
When the Globe has to outsource its token Republican sophist?
Where does he live?
I did not know this.
New Hampshire
That way, he doesn't have to come to grips with anything actually working in the state he hates, except himself, of course.
Income Tax
If there's a better than 50% chance of passing the measure to eliminate income tax as the auhtor suggests this is the first I have heard of it. Moreover, its a terrible idea. The class inequality issue aside, ask anyone who has moved to NH and purchased a house how much they pay overall in taxes and it turns out to be just about the same as in Mass. Getting rid of the income tax doesn't get rid of taxes, it just shifts the tax burden to a different place - property tax. As the property tax burden already appears to be a huge issue for people in Mass. I'm not sure why we would want to do something that would be guaranteed to increase that burden. Getting back to the class inequality issue, the only winners when the income tax is abolished are the very wealthy who now have a comparatively high percentage of their income consumed by income tax, but who pay property tax based on whatever house they chose to live in. Remove the income tax and they are left paying only their property taxes like their next door neighbors regardless of how much money their next door neighbors take home in a pay check. Not a great idea.
Seem Like A Contradiction
How can a rise in property taxes be seen as a shift of burden to the poor? The poor - and some of the middle class, such as me - don't own property.
If it means a higher sales tax, then the burden will be shifted to those who purchase more; again, those with higher incomes.
I really can't think of an instance where the proportionate share of tax wouldn't actually be higher for those with more income, should a deficit need to be made up.
I'm not saying that there would be instant legislative utopia upon passage, but I think it would at least be worth a look to see just how the General Court would manage given a more limited feeding trough.
And, for the record, the last time this proposal was on the ballot, it received somewhere in the neighborhood of a 45% vote for "Yes", so imagining a 50% or better approval now is no big stretch.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Fees-ability
Because it means fees for everything - including basic services that are subsidized by the leveling impact of income tax. The less well-heeled also pay a higher percentage of their income in income taxes on basic stuff. MA doesn't charge food or clothing taxes, but there are dozens of other needs that are taxed. Such as tampons. Figure that one out for equity!
Property taxes and renters
Someone has to pay property taxes that are levied against landlords, and that's usually going to be the tenants, via increased rents.
It's not just the property taxes
(Which of course would just be passed down to you, the renter, as higher rent). It's not just sales tax either. It's the other taxes and fees. How much do you pay in excise tax on your car? Like to see that doubled? How much do you pay to renew a license? Like to see that tripled? Resident parking sticker, anybody? Gonna cost you. Oh, you think they should take the trash from in front of your house? Or that you should get clean municipal water from your tap? How about you pay some more for that? Gotten a parking ticket lately? Was it over a hundred bucks? Ever put something on your curb that wasn't just household trash? (I have! Ain't Boston grand?) How about that school bus your kid rides... how much does that cost you now? And can we talk for a moment about tolls?
We do things all day long that are state-supported and we assume should be free or at least nominal in cost. I've lived in states where they are much more creative about finding ways to make you pay for them.
The way this burden would end up being passed down the income scale is that right now it basically affects all your personal income over X. Many people don't reach X at all. But those people still have to shop, still have to get driver's licenses, still need their trash picked up, and would still like their kids to go to school. All those things that everybody does, which the state is involved in to some extent, would have to step up as opportunities for the state to make up the lost revenue.
One of the arguments frequently made by "conservatives" is that a large bureaucracy is required to collect income tax. This is true... but... imagine the bureaucracy that would be required to soak you for the same amount in a death of a thousand cuts rather than one fell swoop. Bigger or smaller?
Fallacy?
Gareth, et al:
To begin, I know this can get messy. You people are all nice, and I hope you think the same of me. I'll try to remember that, and I hope you will, also, as we carve each other up :-)
You take as a given what I don't. That is, that the entity known as the state will have no option other than to soak us in some other way. I believe that it is quite possible to remove waste to the extent that an income tax is no longer needed, and the concurrent rise in other taxes (or fees) will be less than imagined.
(Of course, we probably differ greatly in what we believe to be "waste". No argument there.)
I will say that I'd like to somehow see an EXACT budgetary recommendation to go along with the proposal.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Cutting revenue without cutting spending is irresponsible
The people who are proposing this tax cut have a responsibility to give us a detailed description of exactly what state services they would like to cut, and how much they now cost, in order to match the cut in revenue. Tell us which bridges should not be repaired, which transit lines should be shut down, which schools should close, which hospitals should no longer receive subsidies, etc.
Federal Mandates
The republicans and democrats in congress just love to pass laws that don't include raising federal income taxes and other taxes. They much prefer to tell the states that they have to implement a particular program to particular standards AND pay for it.
In other words, get used to Storrow Swamp and more collapsing bridges, tunnels, roadways, parks, and anything else that state money buys that isn't federally mandated.
What it all boils down to is this:
Roll back taxes and services of all kinds will inevitably be cut...by quite a bit. This is why Prop 2 1/2 was such a disaster.
Also, many businesses have fled north to New Hampshire, or even South, due to lower taxes. The states with lower taxes also have fewer social services, etc., too.
Order of steps
I can conceive that state government could be smaller. That's a reasonable goal or postulate.
However, what appears to me to be absolutely untenable is the theory that if you just stop paying income taxes, this will necessarily and immediately occur.
If you want to reduce the size of the state government, go for it. I, for one, promise to vote for you, because I know you from this site as a reasonable and intelligent person.
If you got elected to state office, then maybe you could participate in the difficult choices that would be involved in reducing the state budget by 11B. Shall we do without mental health (for 651M), or shall we do without libraries (31M)? Shall we do without elder affairs (226M) or shall we do without encironmental affairs (208M). Shall we default on state pensions (1.3B)? Shall we close all the state colleges and universities? (1B)
Sure, the budget could be reduced -- every one of the things the state budget pays for could be considered for reduction. It's a matter of our collective choices whether we want the state to support preschool or road maintenance.
But there's no magic wand. It's a fallacy to say that abolishing the income tax reduces the state budget. That's as ridiculous as saying that if you lose your job you don't have to pay rent anymore.
I Agree, Actually
With your assertion that I'm a reasonable and intelligent person :-)
(Same can be said of you, of course.)
No, actually, I agree insofar as "no magic wand" is concerned. Certainly, there will have to be serious debate concerning which programs, services, etc., are to be cut. I think the most positive thing that would come out of a tax elimination such as this would be that debate. I think it's way beyond time for many voters in this state to start actually having to think about where their money is going.
I don't want to get bogged down in ideology here, by arguing for or against certain items you've mentioned, but my belief is that private charitable concerns can handle some of the social service needs being handled today by the state, and do so in a more efficient manner.
I'm not so doctrinaire in my libertarianism that I believe an abolition of, for instance, fire departments or police is in any way feasible. However, many sanitation services can certainly be handled for a fee that isn't likely to break anyone.
I adore the libraries available in this state, but there are plenty of places without a public library system that get along just fine via privately funded libraries with materials available to the public.
I'd be happy to have a chance to go over the budget with a fine tooth comb and suggest areas to cut. I ran for state rep in '92 and, if a minor miracle had occurred and I had beaten Finneran, that's what I would have been doing. I only wish you had been there to vote for me :-)
Not strictly pertinent to what we've been discussing so far, but my feeling is that if the legislature hadn't so blatantly ignored the previous referendum, wherein they were instructed to cut state income tax to a flat 5% over the course of three years, there wouldn't be nearly as strong a support for this current draconian slashing. Some of us think the only way to get them to listen is to gut it completely.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Prop 2 1/2
People used the same logic as Suldog - and look what happened! We are STILL living with that legacy in poorly run city governments.
As far as I'm concerned, we have the wrong target and tactics. The real problems are 1)lack of transparency in government and 2)archaic constitutional stipulation that fees and taxes (e.g. gas tax) are not linked to the services they are supposed to fund. The result is a legislature that sees a pot of money and spends as it has to or sees fit and doesn't maintain infrastructure like it should, guts the universities but raises tuition, doesn't tie revenues to services, etc.
Eliminating income tax does nothing for either of these problems. Amending the constitution to bring the taxes closer to their intended funding targets would do wonders for the way the legislature spends. Forcing the legislature to be more transparent in the ways it funds large projects would advance that end.
Meanwhile, I may leave if this goes through. Prop 2 1/2's gigantic brown streak of an impact on the livability of Mass is a cakewalk compared to the kind of massive shithole this place will become.
SwirlyGrrl
I am in agreement with you.
If the government were more transparent, there would be fewer folks like me calling for it to be (not literally, feds, not literally) blown up. And, yes, fees and taxes should be strictly tied to specific services.
Eliminating the tax does not directly do anything to affect those situations.
I don't get the correlation between poorly run city governments and Prop 2 1/2. Perhaps you mean that city governments aren't providing what you think they should, in terms of services to constituents? That would be a matter of opinion, of course, so I won't argue that with you.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Govetnment Waste
Soldog,
I'd be interested to understand why you believe that government services can be provided by private contractors at the same, or presumably lower, cost and with the same quality. The federal government has been outsourcing for almost a decade now (if not more) and the GAO recently issued a report (which I frustratingly can't find) indicating that it does not save the fed. any money and may, in fact, cost more. I don't think that anyone would disagree with you that certain services provided in Mass. are run by bloated patronage hold-overs from yesteryear (MBTA) that have grossly inefficient benefits systems, etc. but I don't think that is a claim that can be made as to all services. What are your thoughts?
Bostonian
It's SULdog, thanks.
(I'm sure it was just a typo, but who am I to pass up the opportunity to begin with a snide remark? :-) )
I don't believe I said private contractors, although that may reasonably have been inferred. I believe I said private charitable concerns in one place, and I expect those organizations to have no connection to the government whatsoever. Similarly, I expect no private contractors - such as in sanitation removal services - to have any contracting status with the government, either. I'm not talking in any way, shape, or form about outsourcing. I'm sorry if I inadvertently gave that impression.
Some services are run in a very efficient fashion by government. I can't think of any right off the top of my head. That's not a joke - I really can't. However, they are there and I acknowledge them. It's just that I have actual work to do today and I've gone on at length here way too long to be effective at what I need to be doing.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Other predictions
It is possible that removing most of the state's budget would be an inducement to reduce expenditures. It is also unlikely that the reduction in expenditures could match the reduction in revenues. The difference would be made up with debt.
If the state suddenly came up 11B short, it would undoubtedly have to slash the budget. It would also probably not be able to eliminate the 11B immediately. Even if most of the firefighters, teachers, social workers, and police in the state were fired immediately (after all, that is what you are suggesting here), the state would still have termination costs, unemployment costs, and pension costs for them, as well as physical plant and sunk costs.
The shortfall would be made up, as always, by borrowing. That borrowing would be very expensive, as the state's credit rating would have plummeted when its revenue disappeared.
Once the income tax was reinstated (as I would imagine to be likely once people realized nobody was answering the phone at the police station any more, that whole blocks would burn before any firefighters showed up, and that they had to shovel their own damn streets now) the state would be in hock for tens of billions of dollars at a lousy rate, and the cost of deferred maintenance would also be great. The net result of the libertarian experiment would be an increase in taxes -- just as the net result of Bush's pissing the surplus into the sand in Iraq will be us passing on higher taxes to our children.
The problem here is a conflict between two different definitions of fiscal conservative. You have the faith-based fiscal conservative - who says cut taxes by all means necessary, and leave the future in God's hands (i.e. devil take the hindmost). And you have the reality-based fiscal conservative, who says let's do the math, compromise, and make sure we balance the budget.
State finance has some things in common with household finance. Saying we can abolish the income tax and this will lead to financial responsibility is much like saying you can quit your job and this will lead to lower expenses. Sure, it will -- you'll get kicked out of your apartment for non-payment, and end up somewhere cheaper eventually, and you won't be eating out much anymore. And, of course, you'll have huge credit card bills to pay off for the next decade. Was something really saved there?
Myself, I'd rather just be responsible in the short term, on both household and government levels. I expect my government officials to balance their checkbooks, just like I balance mine. If they can do that on 11B less a year, bully for them. But the name on their credit card is mine, and if they run it up, I have no illusions over who will have to pay it off. I'd much rather they didn't play silly buggers with a great libertarian experiment that would cost me more money in the long term.
Gareth
I'm sorry. I'm going to give you short shrift here. It's not because of any dislike, or out-of-hand dismissal of your arguments, but rather because you were the third one I'm responding to, and I have to get back to my real job.
I specifically said I did NOT want to eliminate fire, police, and other personnel such as you cite. You seem to state that we would have to do so. I disagree. Unless we have concrete figures in front of us, I'm afraid we're both making statements that can't readily be proven or disproven in this forum. Would you agree?
Let's go to a point I totally agree with you on: Yes, if they would not operate with deficit spending, I would have far less problem with the government. Perhaps we can just be happily in agreement on that as we go into the long weekend? :-)
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Have a nice weekend
FYI, you can find the kind of numbers you want here.
Out of the 27B budgeted, approximately 20B goes to education, health care, and public safety/law.
If you want to squeeze 11B out of the budget, it really is a question of whether you want to fire the teachers, the health workers, or the cops and judges.
Regarding "It can't be done"
Somehow, Florida and Texas do it. Florida and Texas are gaining population from northeastern states. Massachusetts is losing population to Florida and Texas. Simple.
Good riddance
If somebody really wants to live in Florida or Texas instead of our lovely Commonwealth, let me be the first to say good riddance. They'll find the highest effective propety taxes in the country in Texas, and the highest insurance costs in Florida.
Massachusetts isn't losing
Massachusetts isn't losing population to Florida and Texas, it's just not growing at the same rate. However, Massachusetts, despite being one of the smallest states land area wise, is ranked 13th in population. Also, are people choosing Florida and Texas for the tax situation alone, or is it that they are following the larger demographic trend of the last decade of people moving from cold weather areas into warm weather areas?
The role of government
I think the greater question that this ballot questions presents us with is: What should be the role of government?
If you ask me our state government does far too much. It regulates nearly every possible industry in can think of. It is not structured well, either. Examples? There are several different departments that handle highways, roads and bridges.
Do we want a state government that is invasive, structurally flawed, and anti-business? Or a limited state government that takes a hands off approach and lets people live their lives without constant interference?