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Election roundup: Big Food joins Big Bottle in opposing expansion of bottle bill
By adamg on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 9:25am
WBUR reports several Mass. supermarket chains are helping to fund ads against the proposal, which would require deposits on non-fizzy drinks.
Martha Coakley thinks the mayor of Quincy is backing Charlie Baker simply because he holds a grudge over her failed effort to convict Treasurer Tim of Quincy and a guy who is now an aide to the mayor on corruption charges.
Coakley only wants debates that pit her against Baker and the two independent candidates for governor, while Baker wants some quality one-on-one time just with Coakley.
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Comments
Vote Yes on the expanded bottle bill.
All the redemption infrastructure is already in place. It will divert tons and tons of plastic from being dumped or burned to recycling. And hey, if you return your bottles you get your money back so it's NOT A TAX.
Sort of...
I think a lot of the ballot questions are directly related to taxes. In this case, we (as a society) will pay for our trash habits one way or another. This is a referendum on who should pay for the costs associated with the life cycle of the bottles.
A Yes vote would shift economic decisions towards those who market/sell/consume the products and reduce externalities (various hidden costs) on everyone else. Because "everyone else" isn't paying as much in externalities, I could see costs theoretically going up.
A No vote keeps the status quo (an easy decision to make) where plastic pollution/waste costs continue to be borne by everyone, including non-users and future generations.
I would like to see people act in economically sound ways that reduce externalities, some of these questions are pretty interesting referendums on this. I will probably vote as such come November.
Bottle Bill May Be Extraneous
Do not most, if not all, communities now have curbside recycling?
I know I have not thrown out a plastic or glass bottle or packaging in over a decade unless it had something like oil residue or spoiled milk in it. Same with cardboard boxes and such.
Seems to me that the entire bottle deposit can be scrapped now, and replaced with fines for businesses and buildings that do not provide recycling containers.
I have to say, living in NC
I have to say, living in NC now, that I much prefer pushing my empty bottles out to the curb every two weeks, as opposed to making two separate trips to the grocery store and packie and wondering which machine is going to break or fill up first.
Nothing in the bottle law prevents you
You can put returnables in your recycling, and Offisa Pupp won't bestir himself to reprimand you. It'll cost MA residents 5 cents a bottle, but that's their choice. The law targets people who don't recycle.
The law targets people who don't return their bottles
I shouldn't be charged to recycle a bottle.
You're not
You're being charged for not returning the bottle. It's your choice whether you collect your nickle or not.
Yes, but, depending on where
Yes, but, depending on where I live, putting returnables in my recyclables can mean having homeless people digging through my bin, possibly making a mess, and probably taking non-returnable bottles along with the returnables (by accident). Those non-returnables then get thrown in the trash (best case scenario) or left in the street instead of being recycled.
And in this day and age, I'm not sure how much incentive a 5c deposit really provides to people who don't recycle anyway. If, as you suggest, I'm willing to forgo the 30c deposit on a $9 sixpack of craft beer, then it's just as likely that someone at my same income level would be perfectly happy to throw them in the trash rather than return them.
And some people would probably justify putting them in the trash, even if they do recycle, specifically to keep the homeless from digging through their recycling bin.
Point is, the bottle bill that made sense in the early 80s doesn't necessarily make sense today. We have efficient municipal recycling programs in place, and as Swirly pointed out, you're not going to eliminate highway trash unless you also put a deposit on Dunkies cups, McDonalds wrappers, etc.
this proposal helps you
there will be far fewer "non-returnable bottles" if this ballot measure passes, making this problem go away.
Here's an idea
Charge a $0.50 a cup for dunks cups. Use the money to clean them all up when they are thrown all over creation (like they are on all the major roadways).
Swirls , how about a dime
Swirls , how about a dime surcharge on scratch tickets. You turn the old one back in for a credit on the next one, instead of throwing it on the ground out your car window in front of the Quick Mart !
That's actually a really good
That's actually a really good idea.
I see way too much bottle litter all around Boston
and it's all non-deposit bottles, because people pick up the deposit bottles and redeem them. So I'm all for this as a way to reduce litter and incerease recycling.
Where do you walk?
I'm still wondering where all you folks walk that you see all these 'bottles' on the street as trash. Most of the trash I see are cigarette butts, coffee cups, fast food packaging, lottery tickets & snack bags. If your goal is to clean up trash, then lets tax all of those as well.
Not recycled enough
There's a LOT of water and plastic bottle throwaways that don't get recycled - people are out buying
one bottle of water somewhere and then it gets tossed in the nearest trash can. There's also the littering factor which again (from my experience) consists of non-returnable plastic bottles (water, gatorade, etc.)
Check any trash can at Logan Airport
all you'll see is empty Poland Spring and Dasani bottles in the trash. I'm also tired of seeing them in every trail in the state I walk the mutt in. I rarely see soda bottles, though. Wonder why?
Not everyone is onboard
BlackKat: You and I make sure all our plastic and glass get recycled, but lots of other people don't. There are plenty of people who just can't be bothered and we all have to pay to handle their trash.
Pizza
You're right of course, my statement assumed responsibility. And if an expanded bottle bill does not necessarily force such maybe it would result in others scavenging for them and recycling them instead.
As an aside, does anyone know if cardboard pizza boxes are still not considered recyclable?
I know that you were not to place them in recycling due to oils in the cardboard or something along those lines, but is that still the case?
If they're clean, no problem
Mine usually are clean on the lid, so I cut that off and recycle it. The greasy bottom part goes in the trash. I believe the prohibition is so food residue won't attract vermin to recycling bins, trucks, and processing facilities.
Disappointed to see Roche Bros. on the wrong side of this issue
And notice who isn't part of the Pro-Waste coalition
Market Basket is not listed as one of the companies opposing the expanded bottle bill. Another point in their favor.
$0.02
Not mine, but that's what they get for each bottle redeemed.
*Three* independent candidates for governor
according to the article you linked to
Coakley's campaign shares
Coakley's campaign shares office with Lantigua's in Lawrence. Doesn't go after him, but goes after the guys in Quincy Yeah that's a legit gripe on their part.
And
she's shocked Cahill's political ally is endorsing Baker? "Holds a grudge"? You came after him on some pretty flimsy charges (and still couldn't convict), yet you want Koch to toe the party line huh? What's next, are you waiting for Gerald Amirault to endorse you?
I'm all for bottle deposits,
I'm all for bottle deposits, but any law expanding it should also include requiring stores to take back any Mass deposit bottle. As it stands now, stores can put up any obstacle they want to turn people away - limits in the # of containers, requiring containers to be in original boxes, refusing soda bottles at liquor stores, refusing beer bottles at grocery stores, machines that are dirty and never work properly...
In Vermont, I could take all my bottles - beer, soda, wine, etc - to one store. In Maine, they have redemption centers all over, and some want your bottles so badly they offer 6 cents per container. Here in Mass, stores are allowed any excuse they want to refuse your returns.
It's a fascinating entry level cottage industry.
The poor and homeless around my neighborhood have humble money schemes and pipe dreams that amount to hoping for increases in the number of nickles they can eke from the streets.
They scour the place. Immigrant grand parents from the Caribbean and China are in the mix, the more enterprising winos and those down on their luck.
We are getting a killer deal as they tirelessly make their rounds beating the area bushes for nickles. It's like something from long ago.
Think of what it would cost to pay people minimum wage.
It's another funny situation where people who will be the first to fluff a CEO pay package will also be the first to advocate snatching this tiny income source from the local wretched of the earth.
Agreed
The idea that you will get your 5 cents back (If You Care About The Planet) is a false premise if the ordinary citizen has to cart their empty bottles around to 5 different stores, or go out of their way to find a redemption center with no redemption restrictions. It's a horribly inefficient way to solve the problem, especially when most people would be happy to just stick their bottles in a bag on the curb twice a week.
Not even close to "most"
Boston's recycling rate is abysmal.
From the Globe http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2013/07/13/does-recycling-really-wor...
88% of the national average
88% of the national average is "abysmal"?
30% is abysmal all by itself
Why measure yourself against all the other slackers and not against what is possible? If Seattle got 55%, why can't Boston do better? Geez, it's recycling, not advanced math.
Besides, the poster said:
and 30% isn't most.
Reason
We don't have a serious recycling law/push in Boston that they have elsewhere. Triple-deckers ( (or anything under 6 units) don't even have to provide recycling access for separating your trash streams let alone a bin in the units for people to use and be reminded to use it when taking out their trash. A resident has to request the city to make the landlord of a large apartment building (6+ units) offer recycling services otherwise they can safely ignore the ordinance as well. And if the apartment building has a private trash removal service, then the ordinance forcing them to provide recycling doesn't apply at all.
In other words...
...the city of Boston doesn't give a shit about recycling.
It's a convenient excuse but it can be easily changed. Until then, recycling rates will remain abysmal.
False premise?
Do you really buy store-brand beverages at 5 different stores? At the worst, I think most people would have soft drinks and beer that have to go to two different stores. Presumably, you're going back to those places (or other compatible places) anyway, so this doesn't strike me as a huge burden. As for what most people would be happy to do, the recycling rate for non-deposit bottles seems to be saying they aren't happy to put bottles at the curb, unless it's in the general trash. Also - twice a week? Did you mean twice a month?
It's a huge hassle to
It's a huge hassle to remember where you bought everything - some liquor stores turn away brands they don't carry (even though it's a Mass deposit), refuse things not in 12 pk/case boxes, or like the store in Central square, refuse to admit people with garbage bags to return containers. Every host a party and have people bring cans and bottles from all over?
And yes, I buy store brand containers from at least 3 different stores - where I live is close to a Market Basket, Stop & Shop, and a Star/Shaw's. I'll often stop and whatever store I'm passing by on my way home, and other times will head to a specific store for its strengths (ie better fish at Shaws, better produce at MB).
Maine and VT redemption centers let people bring it all to one location - there's absolutely no reason why Mass couldn't be the same way.
I really can't understand the opposition to a deposit law
The big beverage companies and supermarkets aren't going to be paying this deposit, the consumer is. And while I have no data to back this up, I can't imagine that tacking $0.05 to the cost of a $1.75 bottle of water will suddenly make people stop buying them, even if that would be a good thing in its own way.
So why spend millions of dollars fighting this? I just don't see how this makes bottom-line sense to these corporations.
Because liberty and freedom!!!
It's more social responsibility rollback driven by bellowing ideologues and lovers of crass expedience.
Much of my early life was marred by the horror of deposit bottles. It's funny how the World War Two era people took it in stride and handled it with minimal fuss or complaint. They had rationing and people all contributed useful scrap for the war effort. And I had early lessons in initiative and enterprise scrounging the bottles for kid pocket money.
Now we've devolved to a nation of self important Cult of ME assholes who bristle at any suggestion that there may be collective participation chores at hand.
All the frothing and sarcasm obscures your point
Whatever it is. The name-calling doesn't help, either.
Huh?
Do your argument for the bottle bill is "I don't see the harm in charging you more for your product"???
Like that won't happen for any
.number of other market driven reasons that would pass unremarked.
I'll be there to commiserate when you are here in a shambles because the foamy booze and sugar water industry adds whatever increment to their cost for normal biz shits and giggles..
Because the Bottle Fairy
Because the Bottle Fairy doesn't come to the retailers for free to handle all the garbage that comes back.
You do realize they get paid for each container
Yep. You pay and get back your five cents, and the store gets an additional two cents for their trouble.
Two whole cents!
I can't imagine why retail stores are reluctant to have stinky homeless people dragging bags full of unrinsed bottles into their store for a windfall like that.
This isn't going to create something new
Just expand what is already in place. They already have, in your words, "stinky homeless people" coming to their redemption center, so what difference does it make if suddenly more bottles are eligible for redemption?
Close 'em down
Many stores are getting rid of their redemption mega centers because of the 'stinky homeless people' and the constant jamming of the machines. Why would they expand what is already in place when they're already shrinking them because of the problems and lack of incentive.
Plus, you still haven't said what problem an expanded bill will solve
Expanding the number of items
..that will be retrieved would be my simple guess.
The stinky homeless people
.. are too far gone to be so enterprising. No really. Fudd was on my doorstep again but wandered away. Max the paranoid schizophrenic was too busy trying to convince me he owned the building.
It's Haitian grandmas, Chinese grandpas and people who are willing to hustle. A fair number of Latinos. I see em outside my Inman window all day and hear them at night. And they are surprisingly tidy and mindful.
They are out in all weather and all seasons.It's kind of a glibertarian wet dream. And Cambridge is great pickings because people have money here and don't give a shit about getting the nickle back. I never did when I drank beer and I live well on 8 grand a year.
And then there is the change in how we are. I was born into a world of bottle deposits and thought nothing of it. It would have been hard to find anyone who cared. Depression era people were sturdier and the cult of me was at a low ebb.
We really do look ridiculous by comparison. Obsessive fastidiousness is hardly a winning attribute and anyone who works in the food biz well knows there are far stinkier problems than bottles and cans and these are handled with skill and aplomb.
Apparently bottle deposits work
I was initially skeptical of the bottle bill, since I already recycle most of my bottles, but they seem to be extremely effective, at least according to this (admittedly biased) site: . Recycling rates are much higher in states with bottle deposits, especially in Michigan, home of the 10 cent deposit.
Check out the before-and-after description from NY:
That's incredible.
Yes, and New York's bottle
Yes, and New York's bottle deposit law was passed in 1982. The recycling landscape (and the purchasing power of a nickel) is a little bit different now.
If you put some minor value
on a piece of junk then someone will stoop to gather it. When I lived in Tacoma people would gather aluminum cans without a deposit because smelters where there and paid on the spot.
And similar things happen here. There are at least 4 identifiable metal guys who tool around with pick up trucks following trash cycles. I worked out a spot at my building where I put metal and they know it's up for grabs. It is gone in two days.
It is kind of funny how people are isolated from this realm of life. And the convenience/expedience argument breaks down when you have roaming itinerants eager and ready to take it off your doorstep. Many people in my neighborhood just stick their empties near the curb in a blue tub and they are gone. Free Enterprise works for this side of the economy scale too.
Yes, the same thing happens
Yes, the same thing happens here in Raleigh. But I'd rather see more social services available for the poor and homeless rather than touting the bottle deposit as some great work of generosity. As for "free enterprise" making the bottles disappear magically, I guess that depends on the "quality" of scavengers you have in your neighborhood. People I know in Boston have had problems with scavengers either making a mess, or taking non-returnable recyclables that wound up discarded somewhere (not in a recycling bin) when they realized that hard lemonade has a bottle deposit but hard cider doesn't (or whatever).
Well duuh
Who wouldn't?, (well we know).
It's a tongue in cheek tout at best that throws in a bit of long haul observation for a fairly specific place. Boston is a very different mess as has been discussed and will be discussed as a major comment churn.
Nor is it a work of generosity. It speaks volumes to how rapacious our world has gotten that people are essentially pretty anxious about this. I foolishly assumed that would be the meta message.
You know I don't try to slag the south, but they probably do have bigger and more complex poverty problems than Cambridge.
I don't really make a cult of free enterprise either, but it's funny to see this elemental part of it make so much worry. That is a first world problem.
I also have no idea how well designed or half assed the North Carolina system is. Tacoma was fairly miserable and I was only a few blocks north of the gang banger district.
I don't know about you, but I am the guy who has to deal with dim messes made by these stinking miscreants. I just gave the trash shed it's routine bleach douche and rat check yesterday. My pillow is next to a window above my neighbor Marty's recycle tubs. It's kind of like a wind chime sound only more textured when someone rummages.
If anything, the real wonder is that anyone would bother, but life here must suck that much for some that the extra 20 or 30 bucks a day that grandma scrounges makes a difference.
That would be my more elusive point. Some people here are so basically fucked over that scrounging empties becomes an urgent matter. And there is something cruel and strange to me about making fastidiousness mess anxieties the cornerstone of a conviction that this miserable option should be snatched away too.
"You know I don't try to slag
"You know I don't try to slag the south, but they probably do have bigger and more complex poverty problems than Cambridge."
Only because poor people can afford to live there.
I know,
..the gall.
People make the false claim
People make the false claim that since we have recycling in many cities its not needed. The problem is that not all bottled drinks are consumed at home, many, especially the ones being considered (water, sports drinks) are consumed in parks and public spaces, which are thrown out or tossed as litter. Ones with deposits are picked up by collectors for the redemption, the ones without are left in the trash/in our parks as litter. The value of the deposit is illustrated in the dramatically different recycling rates of deposit bottles vs non deposit bottles. And the complaint that its so much work to return the bottles is ridiculous, how is it harder to return an empty bottle to the store you are going to anyway when you repurchase a full, heavier bottle?
While you may consider it
While you may consider it wonderful that poor people have the opportunity to pick through garbage for nickels, some of us would prefer a more modern alternative, like providing recycling barrels (as many cities do nowadays).
"An empty bottle"? "A full bottle"? Are you actually familiar with the manner in which normal people purchase groceries?
Solution: Put more recycling receptacles in public spaces
Problem solved.
Walk along a major highway
Explain how more recycling bins in the city will help with that awful mess.
Explain how a bottle deposit
Explain how a bottle deposit will help with the DD cups, McDonalds wrappers, empty cigarette packs, butts, and everything else that doesn't have a deposit. You're still going to have to pay someone to walk up and down picking up trash.
Look, I was a huge supporter of the bottle bill when it passed, and pretty much up until the last 5-10 years or so. But what we've got now is one arbitrary portion of the waste stream singled out to go through a special process which is inconvenient for everyone involved (manufacturers, retailers and consumers).
With the huge growth in the recycling industry over the last 10-15 years (at least), it seems like there should be a better solution than an archaic process based on the economics of the beverage industry from 70 years ago.
Now Scratch,
You know I'm generally sympathetic to your outlook. I tend to save my contempt for better targets as there are plenty of fish in this barrel to lob ridicule units at.
For shits I looked Raleigh up, wondering if it was some kind of undiscovered mecca of sound practices that should be lauded for moving beyond this arrangement.
But no. http://raleighpublicrecord.org/news/2013/12/02/raleigh-lags-in-recycling...
The money quote:
You got the cool 95 gallon blue tubs like Cambridge only with neat black lids.
You are also in for a long wait to see any improvement in public spending on the various underclass sorts you'd like to save from the indignity of fishing returnables from some low place as easy breezy wiki wee wee tells anyone who will look it up. There has been a bit of back sliding on that score, if anything.
Veto proof majorities. Dayum.. Good thing the poors can scrounge bottles. You all are lucky they are docile.
Next.
But no. http:/
And yet, somehow, I am able to walk the streets without wading through ankle-high piles of empty bottles. That's my point. The idea that the bottle bill is the only way to keep trash off the streets is a red herring.
Yes.
It's a good thing no one was fishing for it. That only stuff is heady and tends to induce hallucinations.
Here scratch. I'm psyched you're interested in this stuff. Here's a sleeping sustainability blog I made several years back that is loaded with links to every facet of the thing.
I try to avoid blog whoring here but it is good to get a bit beyond "only". Most of the links are still working and I'm probably due to give it a house cleaning.
http://sustainabilityumbrella.blogspot.com/
Does the bottle bill take care of all litter?
Just like there is never one solution to a problem, the bottle bill doesn't fix all litter problems. But, the bottle bill as it stands now is hugely inconsistent with a large part of drink containers not included in the bill. It was written years ago when bottled water and other products weren't popular. I just want to see the bill adjusted for modern times. Kind of like the AMT (taxes) badly needs to be adjusted.
Romney supported the expanded bottle bill when governor
So taxpayers should pay to put recycling containers all over the place as well as pay workers to empty them? The bottle deposit, a (small) fee that is essentially waived if you can manage the Herculean task of returning empty bottles when you go to get new ones, does this by placing the burden not on all taxpayers for this refuse, but on the users. Seems fair. Romney supported expanding the bottle bill when governor, it was the greedy legislature that decided that the bribes from industry were more important than improving the recycling rate in MA, which is pretty bad currently.
A side benefit: reduce consumption of bottled water?
Maybe people will rediscover tap water, and put it in their refillable travel bottles, instead of wastefully buying bottled water.
(I buy bottled water rarely -- only if I"m away form home, and have run out of whatever tap water I brought with me)
Shucks
Too bad the only way to refill that bottle is to buy a bottle at the store and put it in your container. Unless you live in a magical city with water fountains and refill stations everywhere?
Manufactured difficulty
You don't need to buy a full bottle or search out a dedicated bottle-filling station, because those are not even remotely "the only way to refill that bottle". You can ask at a gas station, store, or private home if you can use their outside faucet to fill your bottle. Or find a public restroom. One of the best features of our society is the nearly-universal availability of potable water. A tiny amount of foresight will save you from having to buy plastic bottles of the stuff.
...water fountains? you mean
...water fountains? you mean bubblers. There aren't that many bubblers around in the city and when you see one half the time it's filthy or has gum stuck to it. No thanks! It's my choice whether or not to buy bottled water instead of your nasty sugary chemical Pepsi, Mountain Dew and oversized Dunkin McSlurpy with 3 mega squirts of pumpkin flavored syrup. Nasty!
Step into a restaurant
You don't need a public bubbler. Nearly all restaurants (not just fast food) provide tap water for free. Some will charge a "cup fee" but if you're bringing your own bottle, then they won't charge you.
Some of us aren't wicked
Some of us aren't wicked cheap and are unwilling to bother busy people at their jobs without giving them money.
Calling Poe's Law
I can't tell the difference between you and a caricature of someone attempting to be like you.
I would love to have water fountains everywhere
But they're rare.
When I go on longer bike rides, water fountains would be great, but I find them pretty rare. There's one in Harvard (town) that I hit a lot. I hear there's one in Concord but I avoid riding there. Sometimes you can find them at ball fields. I look for them, but they're rare, and resort to buying bottled water or a gatorade.
Try any restaurant along the way
Step into any restaurant and ask them to fill your water bottle with tap water. Most will do so happily. Some may charge a "cup fee". It's rare to have them turn you down completely and those that have usually end up apologizing by upper management once they're shamed for not just letting you have some water.
You don't know where I ride ;-)
On a lot of rides, I'm lucky enough to see a store, let alone a restaurant. Riding out in Franklin County is especially challenging. I did an organized ride a few weeks ago where I didn't see a store or restaurant for 6 hours and luckily we had rest stops. Sometimes the best thing to do is look for someone outside their house and ask them for water.
Ice cream places and farm stands
I've ridden in some remote corners of the state and carried extra bottles, but I don't know how you can get more than 20 miles anywhere without at least a farm stand, if not an ice cream place!
I know the area
I've been out that way to hike/geocache in the woods before. It can be pretty remote in places. However, not to drive this into the ground, but a quick google maps search for "convenience stores" and "restaurants" doesn't show (on quick glance) a substantially different map of dots in Franklin County. What I mean to say is if you can find a store to buy a bottle of water, you can also find a restaurant pretty close by to refill a bottle for free so there's no advantage to buying the water. If you're buying it ahead of time in order to bring it to the remote location...you can fill a bottle at the same point in time and bring it along just the same. The only difference is at the end of the day whether you're coming home with trash or something to clean and reuse.
Also, if you're biking out that way and going remote, you should probably buy a nice platypus hydration pack (or similar brand) and be refilling it once before you start for the whole day anyways. You'll never go for a water bottle again.
Depends where you ride
Massive thread drift.....sorry
Well, it depends where you ride. All those dots are clustered around main roads - rte 5, rte 2, etc. Take another look and see how many dots are in Colrain, Leyden, Ashfield, north into Guilford and Halifax VT, etc. If your ride goes north/south at least 5 miles west of I-91, you're in for a wonderful ride with very few cars.
Most importantly, people have different goals and look for different things when going for a ride. My main rule is "roads with no lines". If a road has no painted lines on it, it's most likely a great road to ride on, has very few cars, and FC has a lot of these. FC also has a lot of dirt roads which is even better. A typical ride can end up being ~50% dirt roads. And bring your climbing legs.
I have ridden just two organized rides this year, both in the Franklin County and Hampshire County area. These aren't your typical rides, kind of the opposite of PMC. They both pride themselves on their routes being challenging, beautiful, having a minimum number of cars, and hitting all the dirt roads possible. Like I mentioned earlier, I rode for almost 6 hours in one ride and I don't think I passed a store (there may have been one very near the end). It's not for everybody, but it's what I look for. As I've gotten older, I've gotten more selective about where I want to spend my time riding and this is what I like. FYI, here's a map of one of the rides.
Anyways, that's a very long way of explaining what I'm about with regard to bike rides. Hope I didn't waste your time. I just wanted to point out that some people avoid all those roads where the dots are and getting water isn't as simple as finding a store. It can be a challenge logistically, but that's part of the fun. Knocking on someone's door and asking for water is always an option, and you'll find that people love to help others.
This is great, thanks!
Some locations may have springs and the like too.
I found a thread convergence for bikes and bottled water.
There is a website devoted to mapping spring locations.
http://www.findaspring.com/category/archives/massachusetts/
It's kind of a crappy design. USGS 7.5 Topographic maps will often have spring indications and the AMC has similar stuff for mountain hikes.
Wouldn't it be cool if there was some counterpart bike community effort to identify water spots?
And then I looked up portable water treatment stuff like a hiker uses as that area has lots of drinking streams.
http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/water-treatment-backcountry.html
All good
I know the kinds of roads you mean. I drove a support car full of camping gear with some cycling friends in northern VT and NH (beyond the Whites) for a two day round-trip of 100+ miles this summer. Some "towns" were barely towns let alone finding a store of any kind.
For those longer stretches everyone riding had hydration backpacks to be able to stow away a full day's (or most of a day's worth) ride of water in one go with the water bottle just as a backup. It was actually the first trip where I'd seen actual roadside natural fountains setup every so often for refilling in the wilderness where there's plenty of flowing natural clean water around on the Androscoggin tributaries and all. Pretty cool little pieces of self-sustaining engineering in some places that brought copious running fresh water right to the roadside.
Can't you plan these things?
Franklin County is wonderful. Smallest population, great stretch of Route 2 and so on. The road grid is pretty straight ahead with interesting town centers like Ashfield that could be Strubridge Village only real.
The terrain is a real workout.
Leonard Bernstein supposedly wrote West Side Story in Hawley. It was fairly mysterious before there was a thing like Google Maps but I would imagine it's possible to design a route around given needs.