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What's oldish is new for snow fighting at the T
By adamg on Tue, 03/31/2015 - 7:55am
Remember a couple years ago when the T put up all these signs in subway stations advising that snowstorms could mean limited service?
Next winter, the T will really mean it. WBUR reports the T will respond to major snow storms by running limited service during the day, rather than trying to run all its trains on a regular schedule, making all their snow-sensitive motors burn out, like it did this winter. The T is also planning to buy more snow clearing equipment and is considering coating third rails with anti-freeze.
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Comments
So rather then Fix it
So rather then fixing the system we have to get used to sub par service this is total crap fir everyone at T and get people who will do there job not make excuses !!
This concerns me
Just like those who put out a space saver at the very slightest hint of a little snow, will the T start limiting service during little snow storms? Service is already bad enough, but I could foresee a future where the underground part of the red line is pretty much always running but Dorchester and Quincy will be out of luck at the slightest snow fall. Some snow? Better limit that above-ground service!
I hope that doesn't happen...
I think they are referring to level of service...
Which includes reductions in frequency, not reductions service area. These reductions in frequency are more "minor" costs to passengers whereas complete station shutdowns break down the integrity of the network.
Assuming they are referring to level of service, this is a step in the right direction.
Skeptical
I want to believe that, but they've used every reason possible to try to cut the second half of the E line of the past few years, including "too much traffic."
At least for the rest of the green line, this is probably an easy cut in serviced areas.
Exactly what I was thinking
Exactly what I was thinking of. Next winter, at the slightest hint of a snowflake falling, you can expect the T alert, "Service is being limited/suspended today due to a possible snowstorm," just like the near-daily Heath St. heavy-traffic one.
Yep
The T kept trying to keep up service levels even as trains kept dying because their motors were shorting out. Better to run fewer trains (especially given the fact many of the cars are so old it's not like you can just get replacement motors off the shelf) and couple that with other methods (de-icer, imagine that!) to keep the tracks clear, rather than throwing everything you've got out and then having to shut down completely for a couple days or more.
And so it goes on...
...Bending to the decrepitude of the system instead of marshaling the resources needed to fix it.
What's your solution?
The new Orange and Red Line cars are years from being ready, and if you are going to say that voiding the current contract and putting it out to rebid with we winners allowed to do all the work overseas, my answer is that there is no way the new cars would be ready by next winter even in the best case scenario.
Like a poster above said, I don't want 15 minute headways on the Orange Line rush hour for 4 inches of snow, but we had 4 storms this season where putting all the trains out there was, in hindsight, the worst thing to do. This plan would appear to be a case of temporary pain (less service) for long term viability.
But seriously, what is your solution? Remember that your plan needs to be in place in 9 months, so timeline is key.
Why isn't anybody asking the obvious question here
WHY can't the new Orange and Red Line cars be put into service sooner than 2019? If the vendor is supposedly as experienced in producing subway cars as the T was led to believe in their bid, then this shouldn't be a serious issue.
Well, they're not
They've never built cars for the North American market, where the safety requirements are a bit more stringent than in some of the places for which they have built cars. Plus, remember that one of the bid requirements is that they have to assemble the cars in Massachusetts - and that means building a factory from scratch (or retrofitting one from scratch) since, of course, we don't have a native subway-car industry.
Points taken
Even given that, 2019 still seems a bit too long.
Your thought on time frame are valid
But what to do next winter has to be thought about now.
The article in the Globe (which I read in print) had a very valid point. Why don't we have maintenance cars on each line to clear off the tracks and make sure things are okay for the passenger cars? A very good question, indeed.
I agree with you 100%
that we have to seriously think about "What about next winter?" now.
I only raised the question of time frame for the new cars largely because the T's response to the current problems all winter has been largely "New equipment is on order, but won't arrive until 2019 at the earliest."
Adding to that...
There is no such thing as an off-the-shelf subway train for one thing. Due to how the transit system evolved in the USA as small independent ownerships at the beginning, many of the tunnels have certain restrictions and most of those cannot be overcome due to what exists overhead.
That is also true fo the platform heights. For example while the Red and Orange line have the same platform height, the Blue line is lower. About the only thing they share in common is the width fo the track and location of the 3rd rail.
Also we have an "over-running" third rail meaning the pick up chow (that thing that draws the electricity) runs on top of the 3rd rail. in New York it runs on the underside.
The width of the tunnels also factors.
So while a company may have a general set of blueprints, they have to customize them to meet these differences. This takes time from an engineering standpoint, and as noted the USA has different and more stringent crash standards so that means the blueprints have to be changed to meet that need, so in essence they all but have to start from scratch with the design and build.
Each fo the lines, Red, Blue, and Orange also have different signal systems due to how they were installed over time, so each train has to deal with that.
It is not just like that here but in most American cities with a transit system. Only a handful were able to take rolling stock "off the shelf" when they were laying tracks and signals from scratch. It is not like that here.
True enough
But I still question why it should take a supposedly experienced builder of rapid transit trains FOUR YEARS to build this equipment for us, no matter how different the specifications are from "off the shelf".
After all, it's not like we're asking the builder of DC-8s to supply us with Concordes instead.
What is my solution?
What is my solution?
Make of list of what failed with the most impact. See what fixes can be applied cost-effectively within current resources of time and money (or emergency funding - if cost/benefit can be demonstated).
By the way - Have the burned-out units from this year examined to make sure we weren't sold cheap merchandise. If we were - hit the vendor/manufacturer for damages.
Motors failed on rail vehicles?
Order them in bulk now. Tweak the operations rotation and the preventive maintenance schedule so that every vehicle has fresh units installed in the shortest possible interval before the earliest date heavy storms can reasonably be expected to hit. View winter as a period of high-burden use of these components and reduce the normal PM replacement schedule.
Rail switches froze?
Figure out if any of them are near gas lines and if we can afford to buy/install switch heaters. Have maintenance-of-way crews go out during the summer to make sure the grade and drainage is as good as possible.
What system (procedures and technology) do we use for real-time tracking of snow/ice/temp conditions and location/quantities of equipment and personnel? Is it up to industry standard - best practices?
just so you know
those motors and parts you claim were bought.
Hate to tell you, they don't make them anymore. The tradesmen at the shop rebuild the motors from other parts and some new parts. I'm impressed that the workers have kept them going that long (this takes talent) since they are so old.
It's not like they went to Napa Auto and bought a motor off the shelf or used amazon.com to get parts.
So there's nothing to order or 'stock up on'. The cars are just old......
And as far as your icing idea.. can't happen, well not without substantial investment from the state.. aka money! So we're back to the original issue all along.. lack of funds for infrastructure and system improvements.
Regardless, heaters would take years to install.... yes years. Just look at signal replacement on the O-Line Haymarket North to get an idea how long such a project would take.
That sounds like a good idea,
and is also completely fucking insufficient. If that's all they're going to do (or be able to do) before next winter, we're going to have a problem.
People who rely on the MBTA (myself included) need to be more active politically and hold our representatives accountable for this shit. Nothing is going to change till we do.
but to quote from above
I understand. I'm a T rider too. But we have 9 months to do something, here's a start.
A crappy start, but it's the best we can do until new equipment arrives.
What about all the previous
What about all the previous winters, where they ran a regular schedule during snow and didn't destroy the fleet?
What about retrofit improvements to make the cars more reliable in snow?
What previous winters would that be?
The red line was in constant fail mode in 1993-4 and 1995-6, too.
Or would you mean those previous winters where we got eight feet of snow in a month? Like, 1717?
They are JUST NOW learning about other practices?
I find this hard to believe. So, assuming the MBTA participates in such things, if they send X number of employees to the a transportation conference, wouldn't ya think they would hear about what other systems are doing over a few beers at the bar?
Inept and incapable. Bottom line.
Exactly!
Beverly Scott was averaging at least one trip out of town every month to attend alleged transportation conferences. What did she take away from these conferences? What information did she bring back? What did she implement from what was learned at the conferences? Did the subject of winter weather operations ever come up at any of these conferences? It's infuriating to hear that they never once thought about asking the folks in NYC or Chicago how they handle operating in winter weather. Just complete incompetence is the only thing I take away from this news.
Quietly stopping to do things
Quietly stopping to do things we always did before claiming those things "impossible" since 1964.
Attention Red Line Riders
Attention passengers who ride the Red Line, we demand better and more consistently reliable service everyday. If in the morning and/or afternoon peak hours your train is late or delayed because of a disabled train, signal/switch problem, inconsistent wait times or in recently overcrowding into already packed trains you are not alone. The service needs to be stepped up to the level we expect every morning and afternoon. Extra capacity should be provided like having more BIG RED cars with absolutely NO SEATS on the peak hour red line trains. It would help relieve the sardine like conditions we as passengers experience. We shouldn't have to wait 10 to even 14 mins during the peak hours for a train to take us into Boston and out of Boston everyday. That is too long and leads to packed and overcrowded trains and much slower and less reliable journeys. We as Red Line passengers should get a much reliable and much better and more comfortable ride everyday to and from work and school.
Wait
Are you riding the Alewife-Andrew segment? Or do you go further south? If you go further south, you do realize that between the two branches, your 10 to 14 minute wait is in fact 5 to 7 minutes, which is not too bad.
Hate to be a hater, but I could only wish for more than 5 minute headways on the Orange Line.
Better and more reliable service
Service and it's frequency should be consistent like the Orange line to have trains arrive and depart every 2 - 4 mins during rush hours instead of 8 - 10 mins. Their trains can run from every 2 mins to every 15 mins which is inconsistent.
Red line trains come every 5 - 7 mins from Alewife to Andrew but it is already packed in sardines overcrowded. Capacity needs to be improved using what is already being used. But yes the 2 branches have trains running 9 - 14 mins which seems very lengthy. A new signal system and new trackage needs to be installed on the Red Line for train speeds to increase and service to be more frequent to accommodate more passengers for a much faster and more reliable journey.
Ben, Ben, Ben
I ride the Orange Line twice a day 5 days a week. I've been taking the train from Forest Hills to Back Bay from the day it opened (though the 5 day a week thing has only been for the past 20 years.) I would say trust me, the trains come at 5 minute intervals on the Orange Line, not 2, except for 2 things. First, if you actually read the T's subway schedule you could see for yourself. Second, when I looked at that, I found that the trains are supposed to come at 6 minute intervals. Therefore, if 3 trains come within 6 minutes, that would mean that somewhere on the line there is a 12 minute gap, if not 2 12 minute gaps.
Meanwhile, between Andrew and Alewife, the average frequency is 4.5 minutes, so cry me a river about frequency. Or convince them to shut down the Braintree line and give Ashmont-Alewife that frequency. And the end of the day, having Blue Line frequency on the entire Red Line ain't going to happen without massive signaling upgrades. And since they cannot keep the trains they have now running when it snows, and rails are snapping all the time, I don't see this as a priority.
Yes I Understand
I do see the orange line as their trains come about every 5 minutes. But yes vast amounts of investments into track and signalling need to be made for both the Alewife and Ashmont and Braintree parts of the Red Line to have the frequency for like the Blue Line. So in general the T needs to upgrade and maintain the system to serve the vast amounts of people everyday.
The Red Line has Blue Line frequency
The problem is that there are 2 lines. Andrew to Alewife has short headways. Blame the T for building the branch to Quincy back in the 60s, since that is the root of the problem today, as you see it.