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Copley Place tower stalls in dispute over affordable housing

The BRA was scheduled to vote on a proposed 52-story residential building atop the mall yesterday, but the Globe reports the authority put off the vote because community groups continue to protest the number of affordable housing units as too low.

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Methunion Manor, Villa Victoria, Cathedral, the SROs being built on Cortes Street, Tai Tung Village, Castle Square, all the scattered buildings between Mass Ave and the Fens, Symphony Towers, Lenox. Also, those new three towers in Chinatown all either have affordable components or had to make contributions to affordable housing construction.

Folks, these are affordable housing options within a 10 minute walk of Copley Place, many many of these places also have parking with their units.

Meanwhile a shell building in the South End, one that requires a full gut is now over $2.75M just to buy before you renovate to live in it. A 1.5 bedroom condo is a million plus.

Now you want to decrease the supply of proposed market rate housing so you, who I'm sure works hard but doesn't make enough money , to live in the South End, where I got priced out because there wasn't enough housing for people who make more than the project people but less thank the DINKS who can afford a third floor walk up on West Canton Street? This is Chutzpah writ large. We live in a strange world where people who have their rent (and parking) subsidized by me can dictate a decrease in housing in order to preserve their lifestyle at my expense.

Also, I'm sure it is easy to think of me a vile for these comments but around the first of the month, when you forward your rent for your top floor of a three decker off of Winter Hill near Rite Aid, just think of those people who get to live near Copley Square and pay so much less a month than you do as you wash your face in that Formica bathroom with the running tap that doesn't shut off properly.

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Do you think new residential housing in Boston should have fewer affordable units than are now required or no affordable units?

Is this you? "you forward your rent for your top floor of a three decker off of Winter Hill near Rite Aid, just think of those people who get to live near Copley Square and pay so much less a month than you do as you wash your face in that Formica bathroom with the running tap that doesn't shut off properly."

What does your leaky faucet have to do with affordable housing policy, just another burr in your chaps?

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Once a unit is deemed (deeded actually) it is affordable for decades, in many cases for ever. The point is made very well below. By only building affordable units and rich people units, people who want to live closer to the urban core cannot because the market is skewed towards upper and lower brackets. The interior finishes of a unit may be different, but the land, concrete, steel, wiring, doors, locks, HVAC, and windows all stay the same price, therefore the developer has to build more expensive units to cover the cost of the affordable units.

The politicians who know they have votes in those pockets of affordable housing, I'm looking at you Byron Rushing, and will do anything they can to preserve that mix.

You want to know why housing prices went up in South Boston, Dorchester, JP, and Somerville over the past few years? The natural flow of urban redevelopment has been altered. Redevelopment from the urban core outward has these pimples of non-market forces housing, namely the large housing projects of the South End on Super Blocks or worse tomatoes growing on sites along East Berkeley Street which could be used for more housing, thereby lowering the overall price for everyone. Does everyone realize that between Worcester Square and Dudley, especially between Washington and Columbus are massive amounts of housing which will never change (rebuilt mind you) but the income brackets will never change.

You know the Chevron, the building that got built along Tremont next to the Eagle? The unit prices were $3.15M, $3.2M, and $3.25M for the non-penthouse units. Meanwhile someone next door is growing tomatoes which can be had at Foodie's or Shaw's for $3.50 to $5 per pound. This is an insane way to run a housing market. I'm all for someone being allowed to have an urban garden, but let's put it on the roof so the Pine Street Inn guys can't steal them and that you can have a nice four story building extending a whole block which people can live in, therefore increasing supply and lowering costs for all.

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That is very informative. I have two questions.

  1. Do you think new residential housing in Boston should have fewer affordable units than are now required or no affordable units?
  2. What does your leaky faucet have to do with affordable housing policy, just another burr in your chaps?
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2. Landlords know they can get away with improper maintenance if they don't have to worry about the units not being rented. More and more people are paying higher rents outside of the core and are afraid their rent will keep going up if there is an ever decreasing supply of available housing stock.

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The correct number of "affordable" housing units in any development should be zero. "Affordable" housing is a flawed and broken policy and we would all as a city be better off were it abolished tomorrow morning - including the supposed beneficiaries of "affordable" housing, who would be better served through alternative measures including direct rent subsidization (which would likely ultimately cost less.)

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around the first of the month, when you forward your rent for your top floor of a three decker off of Winter Hill near Rite Aid, just think of those people who get to live near Copley Square and pay so much less a month than you do as you wash your face in that Formica bathroom with the running tap that doesn't shut off properly.

Too real. Anyway.

"We" are not subsidizing these units directly, but the cost is getting passed on to the developer who, passes at least some of it on to the residents. As you say, that ripples out to the rest of the market and may increase housing costs overall.

But I think the impact of the units themselves is much smaller than the impact of the SEVEN year approval process which seems to pass for acceptable around here.

If we had sensible zoning that took into account community needs in advance, that allowed developers to build within pre-defined guidelines rather than needing to hire a million lawyers to help them through a thousand approvals, we would have had this building years ago. We would have the stipulated affordable housing, lower costs on the market-rate units, and the improved streetscape we so desperately need.

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I will never understand the concept of forced affordable housing.
I Would like to own a BMW, should the local BMW dealer be forced put aside 10 percent of his cars and sell them at a lower price?

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You need one to live, the other one is a luxury. Can you figure out which is which?

Also, for some reason, people often don't get the difference between "affordable" housing and "low-income" housing. The former is meant for people who have jobs and who are making near the median annual income of the area (like 80%). Given the cost of housing in the Boston area, that means teachers, social workers, T workers and other people without whom this city would grind to a halt, and for whom developers are NOT trying to build large amounts of housing.

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I know someone who owns an 'affordable housing' condo in the Mandarin.

And its on a separate floor with a separate entrance. They also do not have any of the same amenities than the rest of the building (i.e door man, conceige services). The only thing that is similar is the unit layout. But the kitchens and bathrooms are 'cheaper'.. meaning instead of Italian stone counter tops, you have Formica. Or instead of cherry cabinetry, you have the 99 buck home depot press board special. Or instead of Thermador appliances, you have Maytag ones. Stuff like that.

Remember much of the cost of these expensive condos isn't so much the location (although it's a big part of it), its the interior finishes. And cheapening out on the finishes is what makes it "affordable".

It's not like the builder just randomly picked units and said "these are affordable" and had the same finishes as the expensive ones. No, these units were built as 'affordable units' with less-costly finishes.

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The city actually has a large amount of "affordable" housing. Just not downtown. What we are doing is saying that thanks to the luck of the draw, some people who otherwise couldn't afford it get to live downtown. If they didn't have these units they would be living in outer neighborhoods west of Mass Ave and near the airport.

However, a huge part of the problem is actually the distortions of affordable housing. If you eliminated it, thousands of units would open up downtown and downtown would become affordable to someone making say $100k instead of $150k. But that would likely open up places in Brighton and JP and Charlestown for people making say $75k.

Also - affordable housing requirements don't just apply to downtown. They apply everywhere. So if you build 150 units at $1 million a piece - you have a lot of room to build and still offer 20-25 units of affordable housing. If you build 150 units in Dorchester and sell them for $500k, the developer loses incentive to build at all - because the market doesn't support market rate housing AND another 15% affordable.

These laws don't exist to make the city affordable. They exist to make certain parts of the city affordable, but it grossly distorts the market in general. Eliminate the affordable housing requirements (as you say - nothing to do with subsidized housing) and all you do is shift the mix and probably lower cost as you reintroduce incentive to develop in many parts of the city at more modest prices. The people living in the Mandarin (well next people - because you'd grandfather existing tenants) would simply have to take the green line instead of walk to work.

People might be forced out of some neighborhoods - but not the city as a whole.

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This! +10000000

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Since when does someone need to live in a very expensive city in a prime area? This robbing Peter to pay Paul stuff does nothing to solve a housing crisis which is rooting in not enough units being built to meet demand anywhere in the city.

I need to food to live. It doesn't mean I need prime rib every night and expect someone else to pay half the cost for me.

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Although developers can put the affordable units in their new buildings, they can also pay into a fund the BRA uses to build affordable housing elsewhere. I'm about to write up something about a luxury tower in East Boston where the developer is doing just that.

Because, yeah, the poors and the middle classers shouldn't be allowed anywhere near their superiors.

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So you'd be fine with a massive tax increase of the suburban parts of Boston to provide affordable housing downtown for those without means which want to there?

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There's a big IF in all this: IF you're building a project somewhere that's large enough to trigger the city's affordable-housing requirements, then you have to comply with it. For better or worse, there are only certain parts of the city where these large projects are mostly going in.

Yes, I like the idea of not turning Boston into an economically segregated city. But, no, I don't assume anybody has a right to live on Dartmouth Street. There's a lottery - if somebody enters and gets lucky, great, good for them, better luck next time to everybody else.

I'm not sure why you're so concerned about the well being of the developers of these buildings - it's not like the affordable-housing requirement is new in Boston, and you're not hearing of developers going bankrupt in Boston these days.

Also, I get the sense you're full of righteous anger and all at alleged moochers, but try to deal with the fact that not everybody wants to live downtown - there are a lot of people who would be perfectly content to live in Roslindale (shocking, I know), if only the neighborhood were itself not pricing itself out of range of many hardworking people.

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1) As I stated above - there aren't many larger developments in many parts of the city because the economics of putting in even moderate priced (by Boston standards) market housing then ADDING the cost of affordable housing on top of that just doesn't work. $100k on a $1 million apartment is a lot less in a very different market segment than even $75k on a $400k apartment.

2) Many would probably be surprised at the natural diversity of residents in the downtown. Just in my building (7 units) we have a broad range of people making probably $50k on up to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Of course the person making $50-60k is renting a studio and the wealthy people own larger units - but it's a very diverse community - including 2 recent immigrants - 1 in retail the other in the restaurant biz.

The market sorts this stuff out a lot better than people think and doesn't lead to the segregation you suggest. While they may need to settle for less space - as even wealthier people moving to the city do - nurses, teachers, cops, if they wanted, could quite easily live downtown without affordable housing programs - especially if you are willing to have a roommate or two which most young people accept and even prefer.

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About the purpose of affordable housing as a counter measure for market-based real estate housing prices.

I think it's not just about making the housing affordable for a bigger slice of the population, it's also about creating communities where wealthy, middle class and upper lower class live together ...but I don't actually know. I'm guessing.

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+100000000

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You think people who earn more money are superior? Or is that just snark?
.

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Welcome to UHub.

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Uhub: we came for the news but stayed for the snark.

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I suspected snark. But i think deep down you do believe the folks who can afford higher rents believe they are superior....
Classic class warfare nonsense.

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You really don't have the slightest idea what I believe.

Maybe Tim Berner-Lee's greatest failing was not including a sarcasm tag in HTML.

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/s

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I will never understand the concept of towing some rich developer's line without giving the issue at hand a modicum of rational thought.

[insert wildly inaccurate metaphor]

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Let's break it down, pros and cons:

Cons:

  • 15% affordable could be highers
  • Will create shadows
  • Will alter wind patterns
  • Despite location next to a major transit hub, will likely incur some increased vehicular traffic
  • Contextually out of place, sorta...but the good old days of beautiful Copley Square with Trinity at it's head are long gone thanks to the Hancock and Westin

Pros:

  • Will regenerate that awful mid-century modern Copley Place interaction with the street
  • Will add housing, however luxuriously expensive to an area with extremely high latent demand
  • Will add density to corridor with excellent transit connections and neighborhood services
  • Regeneration of Copley Place and the SWC will offer both a better urban environment and one more able to capture business from a heavily trafficked street, but one without enough retail at the street level
  • Success will hopefully catalyze the Boston Properties redevelopment of the Back Station air rights site and hopefully make more use of the space the garage sits on
  • Reconnects the South End and the Back Bay via Dartmouth St, which people now scuttle through as quickly as possible because there isn't much there on the street itself in comparison to Columbus and Boylston

I could care less about the luxury housing - that trend is here to stay. I don't like parts of it, particularly "dead' apartments owned by investors who are rarely in them and hold them as if they were swanky safe deposit boxes, but that's a) not as big a problem as we make it seem and b) the lay of the land right now. What matters to me with this project, above everything else, is make the street better, more interesting, more useful, making it a destination in its own right and not just a egress from BBY station to the South End or Back Bay - if it takes a tower to do that, so be it. Doing nothing here isn't a victory, it's a defeat.

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If one disagrees with forced set asides for affordable housing they are irrational?

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