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Pope, shmope: Some BC parents outraged as school refuses to exempt their children from vaccine requirements
By adamg on Tue, 07/13/2021 - 7:18pm
Never mind Pope Francis has urged his flock to get Covid-19 shots, that, in fact, he calls people who refuse them sufferers of "suicidal denialism." Associated Press reports parents of some Boston College student are rending their garments over the way the Jesuit-run school is refusing to grant their children religious exemptions.
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Comments
The pope has it right
With the exception of some very narrow auto-immune or clotting disorders, there is no reason not to get the vaccine aside from stupidity.
What gets my goat is that there are people this stupid out there who somehow have the money to send their kids to BC
Of course there's a reason.
Of course there's a reason. If you're elderly, have asthma, and live in a nursing home, then getting vaccinated is a no brainer. At the other extreme if you're young, in good health, and already have caught and recovered from COVID, then the cost/benefit of the vaccine is reversed. Why get a experimental mRNA vaccine that might knock you out for two weekends, and have unknown effects on your fertility, to protect yourself against a disease that poses near zero risk to your health?
Wow. Who are these young
Wow. Who are these young people who are knocked out for two weekends from the vaccine? On the other hand there are plenty of young people who have been killed or been seriously messed up by virus.
Lot of qualifiers in that second sentence there
Let's put it a less stupid way: "Why get a tested vaccine based on long-established science that's been taken by millions of people that might make you feel a bit out of it for about 24 hours, to protect yourself against a disease that could kill you?"
Boy, I really hope for your sake you're not spending your weekends at the Encore, because it's pretty clear you don't know anything about statistics or risk assessment.
it's pretty clear you don't
Then please, show me the statistics and risk assessments that show that a healthy 21-year with previous COVID exposure has a compelling, risk based need to get a COVID vaccine.
And no, a link to a study reporting that your antibodies go up after getting a shot goes up is not compelling, because half of calculating risk is the severity, not just the likelihood.
Your last sentence
Thank you for distilling the mindset of some who refuse the vaccine; I was genuinely perplexed.
Unfortunately, if you haven't been able to read and digest all of the prior written answers to your question, I doubt that my regurgitating them in a reply here would do anything to change your mind.
This next wave may be just the cleansing wave that we need!
Citations
absolutely needed here. The CDC disagrees with your anti-vax bullshit.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html
The CDC is fighting an uphill
The CDC is fighting an uphill battle trying to get 50 year old people who would benefit from the vaccines, to get the vaccine. That's a pretty solid reason for CDC wanting to keep their guidance short over a politicized topic without including a lot of exceptions that would "confuse people".
As of at least October 2020 there was exactly one documented case worldwide of someone who caught COVID a 2nd time and died from it, and that case involved an immunocompromised patient. One person. How do you refute that statistic and argue that every person who recovered from COVID still needs to get a shot?
The vaccines don't make sense for everyone. Even the FDA is balking at approving/authorizing it for younger kids, because the risk/benefit is different for kids.
I think anytime you witness thousands of pages of research over a topic get boiled down into singular blanket advice for "everyone", then that's a sign that results and conclusions got condensed too far. Nothing complex is ever so simple.
Future state
"As of at least October 2021" -- that's about what I would expect from the fact-free brigade.
October 2020. Fixed the typo
October 2020. Fixed the typo.
So do you think perhaps, just maybe...
So do you think perhaps, just maybe, there's more data and things have changed since October 2020?
There is no argument that a
There is no argument that a vaccine/booster will increase your resistance to COVID. But there is also no evidence that a previous COVID infection is not "good enough" protection for an individual whose tolerance threshhold is either not having a high chance or death or not getting so sick they have to stay at a hospital if they catch COVID or a variant again.
There are two forms of extremism in this vaccine debate. Unfortunately the anti-vax extremists who oppose their kids getting MMR shots has created a group of "anti-anti-vax" fundamentalists who react with fervor at the slightest whiff of anything remotely anti-vax, no matter how measured it is.
How to scare a Red Hat off anything
Not experimental
But it doesn't
Secret to scaring a Red Hat off anything: suggest that it's a threat to their micro-peen or their shriveled testes. It isn't, but let 'em think that and they'll move mountains to avoid it.
That's why you get a vaccine that does none of the things noted above.
It doesn't. Tell that to 600,000 dead and countless others with possibly permanent damage.
Why cite 600,000 dead? We're
Why cite 600,000 dead? We're talking about college-age kids. Total COVID deaths for 15-24 year olds is 988, comparable to annual flu deaths. Subtract the 15-24 year olds with preexisting medical conditions, and the statistic becomes very small.
The effects of COVID are so dependent on age and certain factors, that it's nonsensical to assume that the response to COVID should not vary by age and those factors.
Haven't we been over this?
1. The vaccine also stops the spread to people who are at higher risk.
2. Deaths are only 1/2 the story. "Long Covid" is a thing and younger people get it too. Just because you aren't going to die doesn't mean you should ignore the virus.
3. Variants info is lacking. We don't know how some of the variants will affect people who are younger.
4. If we could abolish the flu, wouldn't that be worth doing too even if most people don't die from it? Why is the flu now considered an OK thing to get?
Just stop
For god's sake stop repeating this babble as if you had the faintest idea what you were talking about and weren't spouting agenda-driven lies and half-truths. Remember O-Fish-L? He had the same line. We don't hear from him any more.
It's necessary to point out the 600, 000 deaths from Covid-19.
Far too many people are taking an extremely lackadaisical attitude towards the Covid-19 virus, and refuse to recognize and realize the fact that the Covid-19 virus is not just the common cold or the flu(s) that hit us every fall and winter. It's much more contagious and more deadly than that, and the Delta variety of Covid-19 that's emerged is even worse, in both of those respects.
Younger people are not immune to coming down with, being hospitalized and intubated because of, or even dying from the Covid-19 virus. The vaccine is to protect oneself, as well as everybody else. Vaccines can and often do save lives. It sounds as these parents of the kids who refuse to get the vaccines, and adults, as well, are in bed with the anti-vaxxers and the conspiracy theorists.
I've been fully vaccinated with the Moderna vaccine since the end of March 2021, and I'm more than glad of it!
Why get a experimental mRNA
Because there's a known effect of COVID - potentially long term erectile dysfunction. NOW is it worth getting vaccinated?
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/yes-covid-19-can-cause-erectile-dysfu...
Irony
is very much alive!
And also ironic
is that BC requires several vaccines, but I haven't heard any fuss about any of the following.
https://www.bc.edu/bc-web/offices/student-affairs/sites/university-healt...
Renting?
What's the going rate for plague rat clothes? Do you need a security deposit on that?
"Change The Way You Get Dressed"
https://www.renttherunway.com/
Getting the ‘rona…
…to own the Pope.
There is a faction of Catholics who will be satisfied with nothing less than an extremist Pope and actually believe Francis is a heretic who is destroying the church. Apparently messages such as ‘be nicer to gays’ (don’t let them adopt, but be nice) and ‘unfettered capitalism is not a central tenant of a church devoted to helping the poor’ are too threatening. It’s not a disagreement, it’s Pope derangement syndrome.
Oh they of little faith
One would think that if they don't believe that the Pope is divinely ordained, perhaps another denomination would be better for them?
Aren't these the same radicals who whine about Cafeteria Catholics and Biden getting communion? The hardline US bishops they follow are.
The Biden communion thing…
…is deranged, too.
There are people in jail all over the world who have murdered children and have committed other heinous acts who would never be denied communion if they asked the Catholic chaplain for communion. But, Biden says that he believes he should not impose his Catholicism on to citizens of the United States and that gets him denied communion?
I’m not here to advocate withholding communion from the incarcerated—that’s none of my business—but the bishops broadcasting a message that Biden is somehow less worthy and beneath the contempt of murders and child rapists? Lol wut?
If Cardinal Law gets communion ...
... and room and board and a luxury lifestyle, then, well, we see what the priorities are here.
Once Again....
You think that Bernie The Pimp is still alive.
He's been in hell for 3.5 years.
Cardinal Law hasn’t got communion in years
So I guess that is solved.
Did you have a glorious Twelfth?
Cardinal Law is no longer with us!
He died in 2017!
Shhhh, guys - you'll disturb
Shhhh, guys - you'll disturb her excuse for not having mature conversations when they involve certain topics.
---
ah, who am I kidding? That kind of hybrid stupidity/hate is nearly unshakable.
I actually don't want to pile on here
but c'mon Swirly, you are smarter than this.
Clearly
NOT.
Oh boy
Here comes the pig pile grunting "he's deaaaad! He's deaaaad!" all the while ignoring that he maintained all those privileges for his entire life.
And if Biden is denied communion…..
…then all the politicians, judges, and Supreme Court justices who support the death penalty should be too, as has been frequently pointed out when this matter comes up. Francis has often criticized the American hierarchy’s focus on abortion to the exclusion of all else and how it distorts church teachings on social justice & life.
And if Biden is denied communion…..
…then all the politicians, judges, and Supreme Court justices who support the death penalty should be too, as has been frequently pointed out when this matter comes up. Francis has often criticized the American hierarchy’s focus on abortion to the exclusion of all else and how it distorts church teachings on social justice & life.
There’ an echo in here…..
…sorry.
There is a faction of
That faction generally condemns (USA) Jesuits as _c_atholic-lite and is NOT sending their kids to BC (or any of the 20 or so other Jesuit colleges in the USA) in the first place.
They want a full on hardcore Opus Dei Vatican
Self-flagellation and all.
These imbiciles
Seem to think that "I don't like it" is a religious exemption.
Meanwhile, in Tennessee … a state full of them.
Rise of the Morons
Religious exemptions = sovereign citizen light.
edit: maybe I should have went with “cafeteria sovereign citizen”.
So many guns in this country
and somehow not enough gun cleaning accidents.
Where in the bible
Does it say to not use medicine/vaccines? I'm jewish so I can only speak for the old testament and I don't recall that particular section.
Can't they just conclude the development and distribution of the vaccines was due to God's master plan?
At this point anyone who can medically have the vaccine but chooses not to should be denied hospital services, should they be needed. If their religion forbids the vaccination, it must also forbid medical care.
Irony is dead
Whoever said irony is dead above is wrong.
You can deny modern medicine and refuse to the the vaccine, then when you get a nasty case of the virus you will be admitted to a hospital and receive some of the best treatments known to modern medicine, hopefully to save your sorry tuchus.
God it sucks. This plague of galaxy-brained stupidity.
A lot it can be traced back
A lot it can be traced back to creationism. If you have to admit science can prevent a virus it gets harder to attack the same methods which prove the earth is greater than 6000 years old. A lot of the flat earthers come from the same breed. They're trying to "debunk" well known and long held scientific foundations and it's basically backed them into a corner where if they give an inch they give a mile.
So they'll shout all day on thier electric devices which could not be built if not for centuries of scientific advancement all while using GPS to direct them to meet ups and churches to claim the science is all wrong. That's the irony.
Regardless of what religion is referred to,
Religious exemption from having vaccines should absolutely be forbidden! It's dangerous--and extremely irresponsible, to boot. Sure, there are people who really can't be vaccinated due to a severely compromise immune system, or whatever, but the religious exemption is pointless, and dangerous, to boot. I'm of the opinion that anybody, regardless of religion, who is able to get the Covid-19 vaccination, really should!
The people who can get the vaccine(s) and refuse to do so are acting in a dangerously irresponsible manner, because they're putting other people, as well as themselves, at risk.
They are almost as bad as our
They are almost as bad as our nursing homes health care providers.
What's that stench?
What's that stench? Oh, it's the smell of Notfromanywhere, doggedly dragging one of his many long dead horses into a conversation where it has no possible relevance and valiantly flailing away at its suppurating, putrescent, flyblown corpse.
No matter what religion I
No matter what religion I think science is for all.
The worst part of the story
She's a nurse???
No one is forcing you to go to BC
You can go to some other college that isn't requiring vaccinations. If you can find one.
Yeah
If she thinks BC sucks so much, why would she even want to attend the school in the first place?
For that vaunted degree...
...the MRS.
Adam, Language: It is "rend", not "rent" your garments
Adam, Language It is "rend", not "rent" your garments
Auto-correct may have inserted it for you.
In fact, a passage from the prophet Joel (Joel 2:13), "Rend your hearts, not your garments" is used in the Epistle readings on Ash Wendnesday, to admonish the faithful to go beyond the outward signs of reform, and to change their very hearts.
Otherwise, a great post.
Yep
And there were lamentations as well. Fixed, thanks.
Are we going to see Catholic
Are we going to see Catholic school students sue a Catholic School for discrimination against Catholics?
Or try to sue the Pope...
... for not being Catholic enough (in their eyes, at least)?
As a gay Catholic, I was
As a gay Catholic, I was Baptized and Confirmed and never renounced so I think I'm still in the books, I was rather miffed when after years of hearing about Papal infallibity that all of a sudden when the new guy says something not so nasty about people like me the American Bishops are like "well that's just one guys opinion."
You didn't study the religion well
The Pope is only infallible in certain cases.
That said, though I've perhaps not agreed with everything that any Pope has said, technically, they are the boss of the Church, so when the Pontiff pontificates on whether or not to get vaccinated, things like Catholic universities are going to take note.
I am also infallible
occasionally, though not very often, and unfortunately never at the track.
They'll just come back with
They'll just come back with doctor's note. You can get around any requirement with a note from your doctor.
Uh. Wow.
Found the person who doesn't actually have experience requesting accommodations.
Not a surprise
Accoring to AP,
https://apnews.com/article/votecast-trump-wins-white-evangelicals-d0cb24...
Not a surprise that some BC parents and students are anti covid vax.
It's all part...
...of the Southern Strategy, which had reach far beyond the South. These are people who were looked down on by the old Republican Party but formed the backbone of the Southern Strategy.
Sadly that 50 percent Trump support overall...
... almost surely means that a huge majority of my fellow white Catholics supported Trump.
I had COVID
A couple of things, if I hadn’t had it, I would get the vaccine. COVID sucks, big time. I’m young-ish, been in good health (thankfully) my whole life and it put me down for ten days. I would say to anyone who hasn’t had it, get vaccinated. However as someone who had it and recovered, I’m choosing to pass on the vaccine. Not sure why I HAVE to believe the vaccine is better than natural anti-bodies, but I don’t. mRNA has been around for awhile and has immense potential going forward. But it is still new and these vaccines were developed very quickly and we are still hearing about new warnings. So again, I encourage anyone who hasn’t had it to get vaccinated. But I also encourage those who have been vaccinated not to chastise those who choose not to for whatever reason they do.
People who already had Covid should still get a vaccine
No medical authority agrees with you on this.
You are right
I still feel the way I feel. I’m not encouraging anyone else to feel the way I feel. I just don’t think it’s fair to chastise people who have legitimate questions or concerns. I’ve encouraged my grandparents to get it, which they did. I encouraged anyone who hasn’t had COVID to get it as well. I encourage people to review the VARES site and read for themselves. Again, I’m not anti vaccine but I am an adult who can think for themselves and decide what is best for ME.
But...you don't
Again, every single medical authority (i.e. the people who have actual expertise and have studied this) say that you should still get the vaccine. You haven't provided any legitimate questions or concerns to override that recommendation.
So medical experts have never been wrong?
Maybe I am naive and these experts are perfect and are getting everything exactly right, which I certainly hope for, but as a person who had it, and therefore should have some sort of natural antibody, I’ll give it a little more time before rushing to it.
Perfection is not an achievable condition
If "perfect' and "never been wrong" were qualifications for anything in life, we'd all be screwed.
We are talking about well trained, career public health professionals, who have been entrusted to make informed decisions based on evidence collected through sound, scientific methodologies.
Can you explain what you're waiting for?
Seems to me that any future development about these vaccines, no matter what it is, is going to be discovered and announced by...these same experts. So if you don't trust them now, what exactly is going to change in "a little more time" that would suddenly make them worth listening to at that point?
How do you know this? Are you doing your own bloodwork and medical examinations? Seems like at some point you were pretty willing to trust experts saying that you had COVID and therefore had natural antibodies. So what's the issue with listening to them now that they're saying "but those natural antibodies aren't as effective and don't last as long as the vaccine, so please get vaccinated"?
Any immunization one may get from the Covid-19 virus itself:
Any immunization that one may get from the Covid-19 virus/infection itself does not last any longer than 8 months at the most. It really is best to get the vaccine. There are many walk-in clinics, in which an appointment is not necessary. Many Targets, CVS's, and other places are having these clinics.
What's that rumbling sound?
What's that rumbling sound? Why, it's moving goalposts!
Every day of your life, you choose medical and other solutions that are not perfect and not infallible. Why, suddenly, are you using lack of infallibility as your reason for refusing a course of action that all available evidence indicates is helpful and not harmful? Particularly when the evidence is that your alternative course of action will not result in long-term protection?
So much wrong
Why turn down a free booster in the time of Delta variant? Also, you could talk to your doctor and allow her or him to explain why a booster is beneficial with those with natural immunity instead of relying on internet commenters to break it down.
Wrong. a.) The mRNA vaccines are based on 20+ years of research. Neither quick nor new. The trials were rigorous and ethical. And b.) Johnson + Johnson is not mRNA if you are so concerned.
I encourage anti-vaxxers, for whatever reason they are anti-vax, to shut up, stop crying victimhood, and stop spreading false information. I respect your right to have an opinion, but I am not required to respect the opinion.
Hmmm
Interesting your take away is I’m anti-vaccine when the first thing I said is I would get it. It’s not worth going back and forth point by point but we do not know any potential long term effects. Also it sounds like the Epsilon variant is more dangerous than the Delta variant and also more resistant to our current vaccines. Obviously I’m not an expert but I’m also not just getting information from Facebook or wherever. To be clear, I’m not anti-vaccine, I’m just cautious against these new ones. And I acknowledged mRNA has been around for awhile, I even read the actual paper and acknowledged it has immense potential in the future. So let’s be clear and honest in our debate.
Rhetorical games
This is classic anti-vax propaganda. Everything else you write is a rhetorical game you play in an attempt to inoculate yourself from criticism.
It’s great that you feel you don’t need the vax despite what most PCPs and epidemiologists would tell you. You do you.
But don’t expect to regurgitate anti-vax greatest hits without it being called out.
Umm
I mean I think people who are anti vaccine generally encourage others to be anti vaccine as well. Not sure how else to say it, I highly encourage anyone who hasn’t had COVID to get the vaccine. I was not hospitalized for it however I don’t wish what I experienced on anyone.
I guess the difference in our opinion is I don’t think of it as a one approach fits everyone kind of issue. If you’re among the groups who have been identified at higher risk, you absolutely should get it as soon as it was available to you. If you’re a high schooler or college student, it’s probably less of a pressing issue for you. And the experts agree on that as well.
Unless
Unless your school requires it if you. Then it becomes a pressing issue.
The experts
all agree that high schoolers and college students should be vaccinated as soon as possible. If the supply is there, there's literally no reason for them to wait.
OR
If you are a person with any moral conscience, you should get a vaccine to reduce the likelihood that you contribute to the spread of a potentially fatal virus, regardless of your personal risk of death or serious illness from Covid-19.
And the experts agree on this as well.
Also,
nearly 100% of the deaths from Covid-19 occur among people who are unvaccinated! That's an awful lot!
Don't count on it
That could change in a hurry as variants evolve, encouraged by a fertile pool of unvaccinated high schoolers and college students if you had your way. Don't be a plague vector. Get vaccinated. It isn't all about you, it is a PUBLIC health issue.
"But I also encourage those
"But I also encourage those who have been vaccinated not to chastise those who choose not to for whatever reason they do."
That might be reasonable if the disease wasn't CONTAGIOUS. We live in a society where our actions affect others. It's not just your own health that is impacted by this decision.
So what's a big deal? Only
So what's a big deal? Only 70% of Massachusetts population will ever be vaccinated (maybe slightly more in Newton) so if about 20% of students get an exemption, BC is still ahead of the game. With staff mostly vaccinated, going to BC will be as safe as grocery shopping. Now what is concerning is the percentage of non-MD healthcare workers who refused to be vaccinated.
What’s the big deal?
Don’t want the vax? University of Phoenix and Souther New Hampshire U are almost entirely online. Enroll there.
The bottomless pit of religious exemptions
There are two reasons why religious exemptions are bad policy and bad law. One is that they institutionalize a preference for religion versus irreligion, which is of course objectionable to irreligious people like me. Politicians, including Supreme Court Justices, who favor religious exemptions, are quite happy with this particular iniquity. The other reason, however, should give them pause. This case illustrates it well.
Religious exemptions from general laws should be anathema to the religious, because they grant the Government the authority to decide what constitutes a legitimate religious belief. Is it the Government’s job to decide whether the asserted religious doctrines of a peyote-using Native American group are authentic, or whether a cake-maker’s desire to discriminate against same-sex couples can properly be inferred from the doctrines of a church to which he belongs? Is there any limit to the crimes that cease to be such if they are religiously motivated? Shall courts decide the legitimacy of sects, or the sincerity of believers? Will a Massachusetts judge decide a dispute between the Pope and certain members of his church on matters of Catholic doctrine?
The Constitution says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The courts, in particular the Supreme Court, have apparently decided that what Congress cannot do, they can do, establishing religion by allowing exemptions from the laws, and prohibiting its free practice by denying them.