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Montrealers try again to get on a midnight train to Boston
By adamg on Tue, 08/30/2022 - 9:47am
The Montreal Gazette reports some train-loving Montrealers are trying to build up steam for a train that would travel between Montreal and Boston by way of northern Vermont, New Hampshire and the Maine coast in a 14-hour overnight ride, across what are now a variety of freight tracks.
Backers say the "train de nuit" ride would cost about $212, up from the $150 proposed by backers of a Montreal-to-Boston train idea in 2013.
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Comments
I get that a 14-hour
I get that a 14-hour overnight ride might be fun for retirees, but unless the entire train is private sleeping quarters it doesn't make sense for an average vacationer. Also, prices starting at ~$200 each way puts in competition with flights that take 1.25 hours (nonstop) or a few more if connecting.
Yes - But Trains!
Is always the standard answer from those who don't think it through. The other answer is well in Spain you can go from Seville to Granada in just over an hour. Yup. I did it. It is as flat as the Back Bay there.
HSR would be great if I had to be in Pittsfield in an hour. I have never had to be in Pittsfield in an hour.
There has been a map going around showing the potential for HSR where you can be in Montpelier in 1 hour.
Who has ever had to be in Montpelier in 1 hour?
I can be in Montreal in 6+ hours in my car. This train route is like going to Pittsburgh though Richmond VA.
I mean HSR exists in Switzerland, not known for being flat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Switzerland
But that has less to do with the rest of the valid points you made, its a round about way north thats longer and more expensive than a bus or just driving. Those points you did think through.
And unfortunately a lot of your post has you as the main character, worth remembering that your lived experiences and needs might be different from others. Just saying!
It's a Tourist Train
This isn't a business commute. That HSR thru Pittsfield to Albany connecting to Montreal would make a lot of sense, though.
Nice you've been on one train in Spain one time, but there's plenty of high speed rail going through plenty of varying terrain in Europe and it works great. From Madrid to Barcelona (almost 400 miles which is about from Boston to Baltimore) takes 2 hours 30 minutes by train.
Also, induced demand
Wouldn't it be great if fast, reliable rapid transit allowed these backwater towns, where JC never needs to be, to flourish again? Could Worcester, Springfield, Pittsfield, etc. become revitalized locii if they were a brief train trip away from New England's capital city? Might that relieve some of the housing pressure that's created absurd home prices in the metro region?
OR
We could just build some more roads.
Northeast France / Belgium
Has HSR.
It also looks like small cities in post industrial Western NY.
I don't know if you have been to Worcester lately. It is doing fine.
Springfield is tied to the CT River valley economically and Pittsfield is to Albany. Not to Boston. Besides, are you really going to pay $40 a day to commute to Boston from Chicopee?
How many billions would it take for a straight line from Boston to Springfield for faster service? Many. How many lives would be disrupted by the takings? Tens of thousands, so the choo choo people can go to the basketball HOF once every two years? Not worth it.
Greater Boston drives the state. Put billions into the Blue Line to Lynn, The Orange Line to 128 or even Canton. Electrify the commuter rail first before putting a dime to go to a Habs game by train.
Future State
I agree with a lot of what you say -- we need to improve MBTA service; we should spend billions on it.
But when you say things like "Greater Boston drives the state," I see that you are missing my larger point about describing the way things are because of our past decisions, vs describing the way things could be based on new decisions. "Induced demand" -- roads, bike lanes (ducks), etc. It's a thing!
Then don't take the train
Not everyone shares your lifestyle or fetish for transhuman exosketons.
You are desperate to not only cling to your rapidly climate-obsolescing motor vehicular lifestyle but you demand everyone else follow that? That's sad.
Be Quiet Trailer Park Girl
I took the Red Line and the Commuter Rail last Monday and it was the only day I was in Boston all week. I wasn't using my fairly expensive and nice transport device.
Sorry I am not fitting your pathetic existence yelling at everyone who goes across your bridge lifestyle.
Like I have said in the past, the pharmacology these days is excellent, especially for those approaching 60 like you. Get on it.
FFS Costello
How many times have you "quit" this blog?
Please
I get hit with this wombat's vitriol and I can't respond in kind because I think the idea of a 14 hour diesel spewing train ride to go 300 miles is insane?
FFS yourself.
Rude
Gosh! His lack of courtesy can be astonishing. He would earn more respect if he responded with polite remarks.
More nastiness my precious
What is with the personal attacks?
Because
She always, always, insults first.
It is like having that one insane dog in the neighborhood that barks along the fence as your walk by and you are just trying to walk down the street.
John did your feelings get hurt?
Understandable with you getting dragged up and down this thread.
If you can't stand the heat and all that right? Hahaha
Negative waves, Man
What's up with all these negative waves?
After Sutherland Talked About Negative Waves....
He used a train tunnel to get to Germans and then blow them up. It is all synergy
When you take an overnight
When you take an overnight train you don't have to buy a hotel room for that night. I think it might be pretty enticing to collage students.
IDK
Red-eye flights are fairly popular across the US or in/out of it, and airplane seats SUCK to sleep in.
Some of the European trains only have sleeping cars for overnight trips, while others have the option of the cheaper regular cars, or the hybrid ones that are a seat but it reclines. The difference though is that the train trips are usually super cheap. It was quite fun when I was a teenager to buy a train ticket with pocket money, hop on a train Friday night, be in a different country Saturday morning. This sort of thing wouldn't be popular here though, in a state where I've seen families substantiated for neglect for letting a 16-year-old stay home alone for one night.
Train > Bus
Would gladly take the 14-hour train ride over the 8+ hour VT Trailways slog.
Cons of taking the bus:
- Getting the extra third-degree from the border guards
- Frequent stops in podunk towns
- Rt. 93
Pros of taking the bus:
- Chinese buffet in White River Junction
This isn't meant as an express
I don't think that many people will make the entire trip end to end. This has a lot of regional appeal.
This is going to be interesting for the seasonal Quebecois inundation of Old Orchard Beach. Also nice to have more options coming from Boston to Maine.
This isn't exactly a new route, either. My grandfather (1902-1984) occasionally accompanied his father on train trips from Sherbrooke to Boston and back before WW I where his father made business calls in Portsmouth and Portland, ME along the way.
Of course they start the article with
"All aboard for Beantown"
CANCEL IT NOW!
Old Orchard Beach
I have a strong connection to OOB and this has been the talk of their Facebook all week. Back in the day, if you got on a train from Montreal, OOB was the first beach you came to and thus it became a Canadian tradition to vacation there. That tradition continues to this day.
Stops in Bethel
Ski train?
Depending on the schedule, that could be great
In NYC, Metro-North runs a ski train to Thunder Ridge (about 75 miles north). A ticket includes train fare, shuttle bus to the slopes, and a lift ticket. It's a good deal.
White Trash Ale!!
Yes, and actual beer brewed at Puzzle Mountain near Bethel. I almost fell over when I saw someone wearing the t shirt. (Complete with trailer logo)
This is a ridiculous route
Montreal - Boston trains in the old days went via White River Junction, VT, Concord, Manchester, and Nashua, NH, a much shorter route, or they went via Bellows Falls, VT Keene, NH, and then into Boston via the Fitchburg line. There was a third route that went via Plymouth, NH. None of these routes is intact today, but the one via Concord and White River Junction could be restored, as it's been preserved as a rail trail.
Running via Portland makes zero sense; even following the current Amtrak Vermonter route to Greenfield or even Springfield would be faster. What all these routes have in common is bypassing anti-rail New Hampshire, which none of the historical Boston - Montreal trains did.
That would be nice... if it
That would be nice... if it couldn't be done in half of the time on a single tank of gas.
I guess more trains are still good no matter what though?
Nobody is forcing you to take a train
by all means, continue to drive that trip, but expanding options for the rest of us is a good thing.
Yes
Keeping spewing diesel fumes while chugging along at 25 mph.
What do you think the train runs on smugness of you thinking you are doing something noble?
They're going to have to come
They're going to have to come up with a lot of money to upgrade the line between the border and Portland, which is currently only rated for 30mph. The border crossing will also be an issue; they're working on setting up a preclearance facility at Gare Centrale in Montréal, but that won't be useful for this route because it has additional stops in Canada.
It would actually be faster (currently) for a Boston to Montréal route to go out to Springfield and then north via the Vermonter route.
Albany vs Maine
This plan does seem unduly weighted towards the interests of the Quebecois who want to vacation on Maine beaches.
I would think the bulk of the passengers would be interested in traveling Boston to Montreal, and then using existing tracks through Springfield to Albany would seem to make more sense. (Aside: it seems crazy that you have to go through NYC to take Amtrak to Montreal.)
14 hours seems quite conservative
BOS-POR with just a stop at OOB: 2:10
Sherbrooke-MTR with upgrades: 1:45 (per article, which I think is the big point of the article)
So that leaves about 195 miles between Sherbrooke and Portland in 10 hours. 19 mph? The SLR is currently Class 2, which is 30 mph MAS, so this assumes a significantly slower overall speed. But, back in the '90s, there was a ski train from Portland to Bethel which made that trip in 2 hours (70 miles). The GTR/CN milk run in 1950 made the trip from Portland to Montreal in 9:30 with dozens of stops. So not too much faster.
But anyway, one would assume that pushing the Bethel portion to Class 3 (which it must have been in the '90s, since it's an average of 35 mph) wouldn't be too hard a lift, and the SLR has done some work on maintenance in recent years. Then it's *only* 120 miles at 20 mph, which would bring the travel time to 6 hours. If that could be raised to 35 (on average) then it would be 4, for a trip time of about 10 hours door-to-door.
While I'd certainly be skeptical of this as a business venture (operating trains is hard), there is ample room on the line (I think it only really gets one train a day each way) and a number of small-but-overlapping markets. Imagine a schedule as follows:
6:00 Boston
8:00 Portland
10:00 Bethel
11:00 Gorham/Berlin
5:00 Sherbrooke
7:00 Montreal
This would provide an additional rush hour BOS-POR trip avoiding traffic (more of an issue pre-covid, but the Downeaster seems to be rebounding if not at pre-2020 "anyone with a monthly ticket has to stand until Exeter" levels). In summer, there might be some traffic from Boston to Bethel and Gorham for outdoorspeople and vacationers, and in winter it would make a nice trip to Sunday River (although the return service would not be well-timed unless it left Montreal significantly later so it picked up in Bethel around 6 a.m. or after, which might be possible). The big market is the OOB-Montreal trip, of course, and I think there are a lot of Montrealers who might not have a car but want to go to the warm beaches of OOB in summer. Then in fall it might make less sense as an overnight train but do a brisk business as a land cruise from Portland to Montreal during leaf season (packaging tours with the cruise boats in Portland, which will bring a capacity of about 150,000 to the city in the next two months). if they could get to a 10 hour schedule they could even make two round trips per day during peaky times, an overnight schedule and a leaf-peeper schedule.
Then add in stray travelers who want to go to Montreal and don't want to fly (or can't afford it; some flights this fall can get towards $500 each way) or take the bus (which is not much faster and much less comfortable/more Greyhound).
I don't think it would make financial sense, but if a private company wanted to foot the bill and try to make a profit, more power to them.
Anyway, BOS-ALB-MTL might not be any faster. The DH ran ALB-MTL in 6:15 in the 1950s, and BOS-ALB was about 4:00, but today BOS-ALB is closer to 5 hours and ALB-MTL about 8. So not much faster! Plus since CSX/Conrail rationalized the BOS-ALB portion of the railroad, there's not as much track capacity.
Albany isn't the way
You'd lose too much time snaking through the Berkshires. Either the ex-Rutland route via Bellows Falls, or the ex-Central Vermont route via White River Junction, Randolph, Montpelier and St. Albans would be superior.
It would be great if it went
It would be great if it went on to Quebec City!
It would be great if it went from ...
Oak Grove to Forest Hills...
Henry Knox
was much better at logistics.
Boston To Quebec Through Maine?
It was tried before, not so good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold%27s_expedition_to_Quebec
There's already almost a train to Montreal
The Vermonter ends at St. Albans because of costs imposed by border agencies and the owners of the tracks that continue 65 miles to Montreal. This is not an unfixable problem, there used to be a train called the Montrealer that made this trip every day. The Vermonter arrives in Springfield at about 3 PM. With a few minor adjustments, it could easily connect with the Lake Shore Limited which now goes to and from Boston at almost the same time. The current Vermonter takes about 5 1/2 hours from Springfield to St. Albans, and the old Montrealer added a little over an hour for the Canadian portion of the route. The Lake Shore takes about 2 1/2 hours to arrive in Boston. Total time Montreal to Boston: no more than 9-10 hours. Then you can take the Downeaster to Old Orchard Beach, one hour. Less time, no sleeper needed, less money. The train serves far more population. What the Montrealers want is commuter-like service to the Eastern Townships of Quebec, with the luxurious sleeper to OOB as a bonus. I'd rather take the Montrealer again.
Boston - OOB > 1 Hr
Minor detail: It's a solid 2+ hours on the Downeaster from North Station to Old Orchard Beach.
Correct
I haven't been on the Downeaster in nearly ten years, but you are correct - Old Orchard Beach is the stop before Portland, and it's two hours and change.
The Lake Shore Limited
...is called the Late for Sure Limited, particularly eastbound from Chicago, and not without reason. A connection in Springfield only makes sense with a Springfield-Boston train, which doesn't exist at the moment.
The way to go is through NH, which won't contribute a dime to any rail project.
This is
This really is a tourist train. I couldn't see this being viable at all. I mean during the day it would be a pretty ride in the fall but eh.. 14hrs is a long ride.
Plus remember, when freight owns the trackage, their trains always get priority over passenger trains. So that 14hr ride could be even longer if there's freight that needs to use some of the trackage. The passenger train will wait... and wait.
Its sad that outside of the MTL-ALB-BOS route, this is the alternative from MTL to Boston.
Ideally a worthwhile train would run along the I-89 corridor. Trackage still exists and is somewhat in use from Lowell --> Concord. From Concord to White River Jct, VT has since been converted to a railtrail. (the former Claremont & Concord and Contoocook & Concord Railway lines). From WRJ to the border, the train would use the same trackage as the current Vermonter service. If done right & some minor route adjustments, you could be in MTL in less than 4 hrs. (vs the 8+ via 93/89)
Love rail trails but sometimes once it becomes a railtrail its very hard to bring it back to rail use. This is the case here.. and many sections (between Grantham & Lebanon, NH) were converted to a rail trail in the 1980s... so a very long time. It would be hard to get support to switch it back (although it would open up stops in places that trains have not run since the 1930s)
NH is the problem
There's zero support for any passenger rail in New Hampshire. If someone else is paying for it, as is the case with the Downeaster, Granite Staters are happy to profit by it, but you'll not get a dime out of them for any rail project.
Concord - Lebanon - White River is the way to go, but this was the Northern Main Line, not the Claremont and Concord, which ran via Newbury, Sunapee, and Newport, skirting the southern shore of Lake Sunapee, and was never the route of any Boston - Montreal train.
The other option is up the Fitchburg line to Ashburnham, then via the old Cheshire Branch through Winchendon and Keene to Bellows Falls, and thence via the ex-Rutland. But the Cheshire Branch has been gone for fifty years.
So what's in Montreal to
So what's in Montreal to impress a Bostonian to take the return run?