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West Roxbury against the world: Mailers not enough, somebody now flyering neighborhood with Centre Street conspiracy theory
By adamg on Fri, 10/18/2019 - 4:28pm
Scott reports somebody plastered car windshields at the Centre Street CVS today with fliers that declare West Roxbury the safest walking and bicycling neighborhood in the city and that the only reason the city is looking at reducing the number of travel lanes on the street is because of sinister "outside special interests."
As with the "coupons" included in a recent Valpak mailing, the flyers do not say who is paying for them, but at least this time, they spelled "neighborhood" correctly.
The fliers cite absolute numbers of Boston EMS incidents involving pedestrian and bicycle accidents, but do not take into account factors that might lead to an explanation for why West Roxbury's numbers are so low, such as other neighborhoods having higher overall populations than West Roxbury, higher numbers of people during the day due to greater concentrations of commercial and retail space, or higher numbers of people who don't own cars than in the city's most suburb-like neighborhood.
The city agreed in February to look at ways to make Centre Street from Holy Name Rotary to Spring Street safer after the death of a pedestrian from West Roxbury at Hastings Street, not because of any calls from bicyclists.
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Comments
It's almost as if non
It's almost as if non-resident cyclists are using that tragedy to push for bike lanes that the residents do not want.
It's almost as if ...
Some people in West Roxbury have lost their minds and refuse to admit that there are people who actually live in West Roxbury who support the idea as a way to make Centre Street safer.
It is, maybe, just maybe, time for some people in West Roxbury to get over their over-inflated sense of self importance and realize that nobody in the rest of the city cares or even thinks enough about West Roxbury to want to destroy it (let alone know how to get there without Google Maps) and that maybe it's time to focus on the issue of making Centre Street safer (and yes, people have made alternate suggestions) instead of just going down a paranoid spiral, as enjoyable as working yourself into a hate-filled lather can be.
Just sign me,
A Roslindale resident who has to keep reminding himself that there are lots of good people in West Roxbury.
Sometimes I think
WR has an underground dispensary and they are sending the smoke through the sewer pipes. People are getting really paranoid. Everyday the conspiracy theory gets stranger and stranger. You cannot make this stuff up.....
I've lived in Boston for 25
I've lived in Boston for 25 years, in many places (including Southie--a neighborhood that loves nothing more than to whip itself into a froth over ridiculous controversies).
I have NEVER seen anything as bugfuck crazy as the crackpots convinced that changing a traffic pattern on ONE ROAD will lead to the end of civilization as we know it in West Roxbury.
What civilization?
Seriously, I'm asking.
Why would Bike Lanes
make Centre Street safer?? For who Bikers?? 44 daily trips 1.3% no need for bike lanes. If you want to talk 3 lanes?? Maybe, but NO BIKE LANES.
I appreciate the consistency
Dumb and unable to spell maps nicely over to can't understand how road calming will lead to safer, better streets.
Parkwayne You are a clown
That wanted to eliminate the Parkway Little League Parade because it shut down Centre Street. Because your kids got bored at 5 years old!!!!
It was actually just him. He
It was actually just him. He's the entire conspiracy. You better watch out or he's going to replace your cornflakes with chemtrails you dumb clown.
Neither of you are clowns.
Universal Hub's clown died several months ago. (RIP)
I get it, reading and thinking is super hard for you
So it costs some amount of money for the cops to close the road for the Little League parade, right? It's a fun enough event but I would honestly like to know what it costs the city in cop OT.
Let's say it's $10k - I'd rather see that money spend on West Roxbury parks or contributed to the baseball fields (not sure if they're public or private) vs going to some cops who live in Canton. Have a big kick off party at Healy Field with the mayor, etc.. and the kids will still have a great time.
because they are better than enforcement
to reduce speeding, we need engineering because speeding isn't enforced. One reason police don't enforce speeding because gun ownership is so high, they are afraid to enforce speeding because it could result in a bullet to the chest. Not really worth it for a $100 speeding ticket, I agree.
How about a wide sidewalk, a road diet (4-3 lanes) and no bike lanes? Would you support it if if the plan didn't provide safety for "bikahs"? Maybe you just hate people who are trying to save money by not using cars?
Mylar?
Does anyone know if there will be special bins within the bike lanes where I can deposit my Mylar balloons?
Lame...
The tinfoil hat crowd can't decide whether cyclists don't exist here and can be ignored or are a vast conspiracy bent on neighborhood destruction.
I live in West Roxbury. I usually commute by bike, sometimes on foot or by bus. I just want to make it back and forth to work without getting hit by a minivan again or chased out of a crosswalk while I'm carrying my groceries. So I'll keep showing up at the neighborhood meetings and the polls and voting for candidates who will support a street that's safe for everyone.
Schrodingers Cyclist
"Bikes are always in the way but also cities are wasting money on bike lanes that nobody will ever use."
"Rides on the sidewalk at 30 mph terrorizing pedestrians but also rides in the road at 10 mph causing traffic jams."
"The bike lobby is really powerful but also cyclists represent a tiny percentage of the population."
Ah, statistics
So, opponents cite statistics to support their narrative, but since they don’t support the narrative you agree with, you discount said statistics.
I’m surprised that none of the supporters of the 3 lane solution haven’t tried to theorize the real reason Centre Street businesses oppose the proposal. Alas, since a certain Dorchester commenter will flame me after making this comment, I will leave it up to others to try to figure it out. Mind you, most that will post comments here have probably rarely been on this stretch of road, but surely, Adam, you have driven it.
Oh the real reason?
Do tell us, is it the awful assault on the 16 out of 220+ parking spaces they will lose? No mention of the 1,100 private spots, the 172 MBTA spots or 70 municipal spots along this stretch?
So really its about losing 16 free 2 hour parking spaces and a travel lane, which based on the study barely impacts travel time. Sooooooo its about losing the free parking isn't it?
Also speaking of Adam, he nails it here: https://twitter.com/universalhub/status/1185294342811987968
Since I've biked and driven here and walked the stretch countless times back when I was at CM, I guess I'm allowed to have an opinion here no?
Spin it's not about
16 Parking spaces, you know that its the traffic gridlock that going to happen. And please I don't want to hear it only going to take 1.8 minutes longer. That is not truthful. So enough with the parking spaces. We don't need bike lanes use the back roads it's safer.
You went to CM??
The back roads don't go to
The back roads don't go to the stores on centre street. I don't bike for fun, I bike to fund my retirement.
So you agree that Centre
So you agree that Centre street isn’t safe for everyone yet you don’t want to change anything. You value 1 minute of your time over peoples lives. You are a disgusting, dangerous, spoiled driver.
You Know what you do
Go to traffic Light Press the button, Cross when the light changes, stay off the cell phone or don't drink the coffee you just got, Pay attention. Look both ways.
Why I’m bothering to respond
Why I’m bothering to respond to you I have no idea but I do all those things you mention and it still doesn’t matter.
In fact when I’m at HN rotary I have to stand there and wave my arms before anyone will stop at any of the crosswalks. No one stops otherwise. I’m not on my phone. I look both ways. I’m not drinking coffee. I’m trying to cross a street in an area that I live in, pay taxes, and spend money in.
Do you understand that not all streets have signals? They have crosswalks. You don’t want the streets safer bc that *might* increase your wait time by a minute for a small portion of the day? Fine, work to have the city put in traffic lights at every single crosswalk all the way down Centre, including the side streets you have to cross on Centre. The minute someone presses that button the cycle changes and gives us the minimum of 45 -60 seconds to cross the street. Sidewalks can be open to bikers and bikes can park in the free parking for life spaces.
I wonder Barron, and the rest of you spitting made up bs, about “outsiders and the biker groups ruining WR” would have the nuts to speak your vitriol to the people that have gotten hit or killed? In person not on your keyboard.
Come up with a better solution that benefits everyone, not just drivers or sit down. Your shtick is boring.
Everyone here pays taxes and your excise bill doesn’t cover shite. Nor does the gas tax that hasn’t been raised in 25 years. Drivers do not pay for the damage they do to the streets or environment and yes, I also drive but can see things need to change.
West Rox isn’t the end all be all. There are no special interest groups trying to take over an incredibly boring area that doesn’t have anything to offer anyone outside of the neighborhood. So please stop getting the vapors at any mention of bettering the community. You make yourself look foolish.
well, hey there, (the
well, hey there, (the unfashionable and disowned section of) west roxbury does have a lazer tag place in the same shopping complex as a smoke shop / sex store / soon to be weed dispensary / taco bell. that sounds like a city-wide destination to me. let's not shit on the ENTIRE neighborhood cuz the hoity toity gentrified areas are full of paranoid nutjobs screaming about biking communists.
So happy the city is doing this.
It’ll probably be quicker to get through in the car.
You have some counter data?
What specifically isn't truthful based on your research? Show your work please.
The problem is, this is the hallmark response of the NIMBY anti road safety zealot, any data that argues against your perceived beliefs isn't gonna away you, jsut like the clowns in NYC regarding the 14th Street shutdown to cars, the scary traffic concerns they had were proven wrong but they are still pushing ahead with their frivolous lawsuit against it. Oh well.
Yeah was at CM when I think Chisholm was running things, Golden was teaching theology and had Hansen for science, couldn't make the hockey team though sadly. The dances were pretty good too but I kinda preferred Club X since more of my friends went there.
Using your "logic"
Can't you just drive only on the freeways?
No, it's not about the 16 spaces
And anyone who has driven the road on a weekday should know the real reason why. If there are less than 150 comments on this on Sunday and no one has figured it out, I'll enlighten the unenlightened.
I will say this, West Roxbury, or at least a vocal part of the neighborhood, is resistant to change. They don't want Roxbury Prep, or as the sign says they don't want anything at 361 Belgrade. They don't want transit oriented housing next to a train station that would replace an abandoned factory. If you want to go far enough back, they didn't want Home Depot on the Parkway. Even further, they didn't want the Orange Line extended to the neighborhood when the Southwest Corridor was being designed. But that's only part of it. I'm talking the business owners. And much like how the Roxbury Prep opponents are hiding behind "student safety," the business owners are bemoaning the 16 spaces to cover for their real concern, which has nothing to do with bicycles. And on that note, this should not be about bicycles. This should be about traffic calming and pedestrian safety. If a road diet can help that, it should be done. If cyclists get better infrastructure, that's a bones, but this originated with concerns for pedestrians and that's where the focus should be.
It's good that the project
It's good that the project has multiple goals. That way if one goal is a failure, they can point to the other one.
Like the bike and bus lanes through MIT installed last year. They made traffic so horrible that buses move slower than before, despite the bus lanes. They get stuck in general traffic before reaching the lanes, and the traffic lights are so complicated that everyone has to sit at an endless red to get their few seconds of green.
So they point to the bike lanes (which replaced perfectly functional traditional bike lanes), and declare it a success. But bike accidents in a small area are random enough that it's hard to say whether the accident count this year is due to this project or natural variation.
That's not quite accurate
The West Roxbury folks against Roxbury prep are just racists.
The West Roxbury folks against street diets mostly live in the outer stretch of the neighborhood and want to drive through the city without having to stop on their way to patronage gigs with the DPW, etc... Steve Bickerton Jr type scumbags basically.
Parkwayne, I’m not a racist
Parkwayne, I’m not a racist and that shtick is also old. You lose credibility for your argument when you paint with a wide brush like that.
This post isn’t about the school but I am against it for reasons that have nothing to with race. Are there ppl against bc of that? Yes there are, and it sickens me that I unfortunately agree with them about this particular school but for far different reasons.
This school does not educate all BPS students. It has a horrendous track record of expelling kids who they deem unworthy and the teachers are not union teachers. I’m all for a BPS school there...just not this particular charter.
But let’s keep this post about the safety of people that use the roads and not the school. Start a new thread for that.
Why is a person a racist
if they don't want Roxbury Prep in West Roxbury, find a better spot like maybe Roxbury where a majority of the students live. I am sure the students would rather have it that way. I mean BPS says students need sleep for their brains to function ( any student black white etc.) So why put a difficult commute on their shoulders.
Difficult commute
Please show the numbers behind this.
You're right, it shouldn't just be about bike lanes
But thats what we are seeing enormous push back on through these threads, despite the obvious safety improvements to multi-modal transit options.
I mean if wanna talk about being resistant to change and traffic patterns, lets talk about the street cars that used to be on this stretch until cars were forced into the area.
I'm still not getting what the real concerns are, other than baseless reactionary NIMBYism.
Alright, so here's the deal
Aside from the typical divide of "change everything" and "change nothing", aside from the cries of "who can be against this" (those being the people who shout down anyone who offers the slightest criticism of the plan, as was demonstrated towards me recently) and the cries of "this will ruin the entire neighborhood," there was something that came up that I found fascinating.
I read the Bulletin religiously. The offer fair and balanced reporting, as opposed to Adams application of the phrase in the sense Fox News does. A month or 2 ago, I saw that the local business association came out against the plan, based on parking concerns. Notably, the owner of Atlas Hardware decried the move. Now, the argument has been made that it is only 16 spots, and there's parking nearby in municipal lots, but the more important parking to be lost is the parking by the delivery trucks and, in the case of West Roxbury Day Rehabilitation, transport vans. You see, they all double park on Centre Street. Some (and by some I mean a certain commenter here) would decry such activity, but in the end it is because the area is such an old business district that such activity is considered necessary. It's been tolerated because, well, you can just get into the left lane, and since traffic isn't too heavy most of the time, drivers are not delayed. Remove that lane, turn it into a bike lane less than the width of a travel lane, and suddenly the poor saps dropping off people for rehab or delivering for UPS are probably blocking traffic and the bike lane. That'll piss a lot of people off.
I honestly believe that the fear of a crackdown on double parking is what is driving the opposition of the business community. They are the ones with pockets deep enough to advertise. Am I being insane? Well, take a drive down Centre Street at 2 or 3 PM some weekday, then ask yourself if the theory may just hold water.
Double parking and delivery also Belgrade
I hear what you're saying (well, reading what you are writing) but the counter point is that JP, Brookline Village, and Roslindale all have 'downtown' districts which I think are more thriving than West Roxbury with mostly two lane roads, so I think this argument falls flat.
Belgrade is probably a similar width to Centre St. in West Roxbury and traffic is fine with one lane each way with parking and painted bike lanes.
Double Parking on Belgrade???
There are no businesses on Belgrade, forget about the square. But were on Belgrade at the lights at Wallworth?? a few stores, then where ?? Stash's The Laundry. Does not compare with Centre Street. I was in Needham Center yesterday and in the business district it is 2 lanes both ways. Great Plain ave. once out of Business area i goes back to 1 lane
I disagree
And mind you, I get to Centre Street via Belgrade typically.
I’m not saying it’s a good reason, but deep down I think that is the real reason for business opposition.
I read through your earlier reply.
Having a hard time here... "Don't put a bike lane in because then trucks can't double park" seems to be a distinction without a difference from "don't change anything."
Not trying to pick a fight here but I'm failing to see a meaningful difference between what you view as hard no and mere criticism. For instance, if I were to offer criticism of the plan, as I understand it, maybe I'd look towards to Skendarian Apothecary example on Cambridge Street in Cambridge where parking spots weren't eliminated but the traffic configuration was changed. They also were vocal critics that losing parking would be bad for business but they're still doing alright now with parking and a protected bike lane. On the other hand, I can't make a case for double parking. Finding non travel lane unloading zones should be a higher priority than blocking them, no matter the mode.
The difference between a hard no and honest criticism
Last week I mentioned concern with removing some traffic lights, which is a part of the plan. A certain commenter responded to my concern by noting that no one likes me. And the thing is, I support the plan by and large.
As for the double parking thing, it could be a game charger for the businesses who rely on vehicles occupying a travel lane for a period of time.
superficial
West Roxbury Day Rehabilitation has a for lease sign in the window(2018 Google Streets) and a parking lot directly behind it. It appears to have a wide back entrance as well. If those vans still double park out front, they don't need to.
I think you should read the report and then decide whether the traffic lights should be removed. Double parking is unsafe for all of us. A business plan that "relies" on illegal parking is already weak. Perhaps a small change won't hurt the project over all, but you haven't provided evidence that it will help. You would spend less time on this if you read through the plan.
Where are you getting 1,100 parking spots???
The MBTA Lot is for commuter rail riders, also Faulkner Hospital leases out spots in MBTA Lot as of 2017 and has shuttle service. Where are the 70 Municipal Lots please tell me not behind or next to the Post Office Lot. There isn't 70 spaces there. If the Business Owners didn't park in front of their shops, MBTA commuters would park there.
Those are the City of Boston's numbers Red
Really putting those blinders on aren't we?
Again its only 16 spots to lose, why is it so important for buisness owners to have personal parking in front of their shops? Would charging market rate and letting demand dictate the pricing here be a better use of valuable public space? If MBTA commuters are abusing these spaces and over staying time, well then we need additional enforcement too.
Page 8.
https://www.boston.gov/sites/default/files/imce-uploads/2019-06/19-06-20...
Is this the same Centre
Is this the same Centre Street that hits Severin Avenue in JP?
If my mother were alive
If my mother were alive (lifelong West Roxbury resident) she would say that Centre St is very dangerous for pedestrians. Unfortunately she was killed by a reckless driver in a dangerous intersection- in the same intersection another man was seriously injured a few years ago- while crossing the street to spend money at a local business.How many parking spaces are worth a life? Apparently 16 is too many for the business owners (many of whom don't live in West Roxbury and occupy precious parking spaces in front of their own stores). I can't help but think, if she had lived another 10 years how many $thousands more she would have spent at the local stores on Centre St. It's a shame, my condolences to the businesses for all that revenue lost.
I am sorry
that neighbors seem to be making a mockery of the situation Matt. There are many of us that are very sorry for your loss. Hopefully a perfectly reasonable solution will come from this and your family can rest easy knowing your efforts for change would have made you mother proud.
Extending my deepest heartfelt condolences.
no bikes
no bikes
What I heard
is that their has been some people going to business owners to vote for the road diet. I hope that is NOT TRUE
Uh sure
You don't get to decide what happens in this city on an administrative level. This is not a direct democracy, and no one is voting on whether this road is going to get fixed. You can, however, vote with your wallet and flee the city to the suburb that you long so much to be a part of.
Pound sand, stranger, and don't feel the need to look back.
Hi Ken
I expect people to drive responsibly and stop the car if they can't see what's in front of them. Since it does not seem like drivers can be trusted to actually do that, we need improvements to the road design to force drivers to operate more responsibly.
No hateful trolls.
No hateful trolls.
Business Owner Parking
Business owners who are jealous of losing a spot to park during the day are working against their own self interest. When they park in front of their stores, that spot doesn't turnover and therefore brings them no additional business. It works out to about $100,000 a year that they are losing by insisting on a spot for themselves. Frequent turnover is the key to succesful salesforce. Not to mention, a safer environment for non driving road users will also drive increased sales.
West Roxbury land of the
West Roxbury land of the Nimby.
What's wrong with NIMBY
The People of West Roxbury have a lot invested in their real estate and history. What should they do? People grow up in a town and you tell them everything they do is wrong?? Why should they change.
Answer: to help save other people's lives
...but you've consistently demonstrated that you don't give a shit about anyone in this neighborhood but yourself, so I don't expect you actually wanted an answer to that last question.
what is all the fuss about?
I don't think anyone really cares about trimming down centre street to one lane. what is the harm if it saves one life? In the theory of Isaac Newton, survival of the fittest.The weak businesses won't last with or without a road diet. Let's give it a shot. Since people are really mad at bikes.let's try it without bike lanes first, and then transition it into kid with tricycles, then parents with kids on the back of their bikes, then the annoying bike nuts. Since we instituted the traffic chaos in my town, there has only been 4 deaths from bad drivers n the last 4 years.
You aren't the only one who
You aren't the only one who lives here. I cross Centre Street every day on my way to and from the train and I fear for my life every time I do. Making it safer isn't going to ruin the neighborhood.
Fear for your life???
So when you get off the commuter rail, you are worrying about how to cross Centre Street?? really?
Circular
That's what this is about. Crossing the street without loss of life.
I’ve never seen an issue so
I’ve never seen an issue so clearly divide people by intelligence.
Not a town
Part of a city. People from other parts of the city have a stake here, as do people from other cities and towns if this is state money involved.
WR is not a town.
Not now, anyway. Not for about 100 years.
It was ever thus
I'm having Post Traumatic Casey Overpass flashbacks.
Failure to consider anything outside your personal 3000-pound box on wheels? Check.
Small-c conservative resistance to change of any kind? Check.
Claims of disaster to come unsupported by data? Check.
Refusal to accept momentary inconvenience of any kind? Check.
Resentment of pedestrians and cyclists? Check.
My thoughts exactly !
As a daily car commuter , almost daily runner and occasional cyclist I am more than happy with the end result of the at grade solution. Balanced benefits for many various factions.
People fear change so much and only think of themselves - it’s shameful.
The True Agenda
of the joint conspiracy of the Illuminati, the Elders of Zion, and the Deep State is revealed:
TODAY THE WORLD, TOMORROW WEST ROXBURY!
The Protocols ...
of The Deep State of Bicycling.
These Flyers are part of of a weird trend
This road diet is a proposal to change infrastructure and the residents don't universally agree to it. I wish this could be an exchange of idea's backed up by records and engineering.
For me the fundamental beginning of this argument, is whether Centre Street evolved to a four car lane road with street parking organically to serve the needs of residents. To me, it did not. This road is very wide because it used to have 2 lanes of street cars, 2 lanes of car traffic and street parking. Street cars were abandoned mid 20th century when Boston's population was at it's highest, when car ownership was still relatively low. Over the past 70 years, Centre Street has been a 4 car lane road. During much of this time, Boston population was going down. Less local population= less pedestrians. During that time while the road was same because there were less locals, and the consequences were less. Now the city's population is growing and it will exceed the highest previous levels. It is no longer safe to have 4 cars lanes in an urban street. Change is hard.
I believe that in the long run we can move more people faster in alternative transportation. I think this proposal is backed by research and engineering. While it is possible that there is science and research that supports keeping Centre St as it is, that isn't what is being presented. Conspiracy theories are hard to fight. I am curious as to what end that serves the local residents.
What would happen if there was vote
I wonder if there was a vote among West Roxbury residents and business owners on the road diet plan, what would the result be. I say 3 to 1 vote of no road diet.
I disagree
I guess it might be a surprise to you. Your arguments seem to come from some kind of bubble that doesn't allow information that you don't already agree with to be considered.
Also business owners (of which many are residents) don't get an extra vote. They can vote with their feet.
There was
There was. It was last month, 9/24. There was one candidate for city council at-large against the road diet. Marty Keough. And “against” is an understatement. He was the most vocal person at every meeting on the topic, even made a pathetic attempt to railroad the holy name meeting by taking the mic before they even called for speakers and trying to speak for the room claiming everyone came out to oppose it. The only thing worse than his strategy was his execution. Once he gave up the microphone over 30 people spoke in favor and versus a total of 5 against. He then spent the next couple months spewing lies online and trying to scare people into opposing the road diet.
After all that, he got trounced in the election in his home neighborhood with less than 12% of the vote. First time candidates that vocally favor the road diet moved into the final (Halbert, Mejia, St. Guillen). They earned plenty of votes in West Roxbury by supporting the road diet. If West Roxbury residents opposed the road diet 3/1 they’d have gone to vote for Keogh.
We have a representative government. We elect people based on their policy positions.
Trump got in
TRUMP
JP Runner
You are an incredibly lame person.
Is West Roxbury Paying For it?
Or is the CITY of BOSTON and the COMMONWEALTH of MASSACHUSETTS paying for it?
This "I live in a town that's being picked on" shtick is getting really tiresome.
The Commonwealth ain't paying for it
Which I guess means your opinion counts as much as my opinion on the residents only beach in your city does.
let's compromise, we'll keep
let's compromise, we'll keep 4 lanes, but two of them become bus-only (since the mbta isn't about to start buying more streetcars) bikers and busses can share, that seems to work out well.
westie residents sure want to act like they're still living in 1950, let's go back all the way
Make Corinth Street One lane
I just went through Roslindale Square and I wonder why Corinth St is 2 lanes very dangerous.
This would open up room from a dedicated bike lane, not just painted bike logo
Also in front of the Library, Washington St becomes 3 Lanes I think this is way too many lanes and very dangerous to cross. One person told me they feared for their lives trying to cross to get to commuter rail
corinth should be redesigned
corinth should be redesigned to 1 lane car, separate bike/bus lane, and wider sidewalks. remove the parking to improve visibility all around. buy the BoA lot and turn it into another public lot as a replacement.