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Irony is dead
By adamg on Sun, 06/07/2020 - 11:07pm
Jake at HUB History took this photo today as crowds gathered at City Hall Plaza for the latest vigil and march. You would think a National Guard unit in Massachusetts, of all places, would know the significance of the large circle in front of the Old State House and not park an armed soldier and battle-ready Humvee right where authorities killed a black man, triggering events that ended with a revolution.
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More ironic
This story about a Guardsman and his armored car, is sandwiched in between two other U-hub stories both involving people shooting at cars.
nah
irony is watching people who spent 7 months screaming about socialism and communism now gleefully cheering as the military descends upon the city
None of us who are aware are
None of us who are aware are actually cheering about that. I’m against the riots, which makes the police force being in the city necessary. But you’d think they’d stay away from the old state house haha.
Fun fact though: The Boston Massacre is pretty much just propaganda. Nobody knows who shot first after the soldiers got icy snowballs thrown at them. The death of colonists became a rallying cry, but the real revolution came afterwards when King George decided that their soldiers couldn’t be properly tried in the colonies. That pissed Adams off, and he defended the soldiers, because it meant he couldn’t practice his profession and ensure a fair trial with witnesses in favor and witnesses against the defendant.
Nah
The police or military choosing to protect empty buildings while there are actual crimes going on is pretty par for the course at this point
Intentional, or just ignorant and cringe-inducingly tone-deaf?
I'm going with the latter, using Hanlon's Razor, but shame on our local Guard field leadership regardless. If you serve in this Commonwealth, you have no excuse not to be aware of the historic symbolism there. I was taught the details, context and significance of the Boston Massacre in a MA public-school fifth-grade social studies class, so it's an awful look for you either way.
is that
anything like Occum's Razor?
It's similar to Occam's Razor. It goes, "Never
attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Absolutely.
I can almost guarantee that whoever decided to park that humvee there did not think about nearby monuments at all. They were thinking about solving the tactical problem of the moment. No big philosophical discussion about the Revolution, the place of free men in Colonial society or anything else.
'Intentional, or just ignorant and cringe-inducingly tone-deaf?'
Neither.
I've had a busy day today. So, spent a few minutes bouncing around the net and I have come to a conclusion.
Everybody is collectively flipping their lids.
Maybe he's parked fifty feet from the monument to the Massacre because someone just had to pick a spot and said, 'Well, how about in front of the old State House?'
OK, as a thought exercise...what percentage of the people killed in the Boston Massacre were black? I'm not counting those that died later, I mean on the scene.
To answer this question you need to know how many people were killed there. I want the answer now, not after you look up 'Boston Massacre' online.
JB, you might know, but, really, how many others? Really. Crispus Attucks.
OK, name another one. Just one out of the other four.
You really do
You really do love to give us these little assignments, don't you? Guess what? We're not so fond of them.
How about you do something for us? Try being more informative, and less condescendingly patronizing? After all, most of us come here looking for information, not your holier-than-thou snark.
I come here
And then I read a comment by magoo and I flip my lid, just like everyone else is doing
Irony is alive and well
Perruptor...the old saying...you catch the most flak when you're over the target.
So, how many of your upvotes knew anything about the Boston Massacre besides the name 'Crispus Attucks'?
My little assignment? Got to laugh.
How many knew anything at all about the events leading up to the engagement? How many know the role that Adams (the ale, not the lager) played in the defense of the British soldiers?
It's not snark. So many people like to spout off about something they know nothing about. At least JB remembers his schooling. Me? I can't remember last week, so I look things up.
Tell ya what...just to keep you happy, I'll not ask you questions. I'll just state facts.
The name Carr is the only one I ever remember, except for Crispus Attucks.
See also
Everything you have posted here on COVID-19.
It's OK, dear.
I was just reading and posting from the Really Smart People. Don't feel too bad. I don't blame you for getting it so wrong. After all, you were lied to by the Chinese Communist Party.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/satellite-dat...
The expert's mistake was in falling for it.
I went to the Lunar New Year events in Boston
on February 1 at the Museum of Fine Arts, and February 2 in Chinatown. Is there some reason I should have avoided them?
There was also a Lion Dance at the Boston Symphony Orchestra's free concert on February 16.
I know a few things...
...and I didn't grow up in Massachusetts. Without consulting the web, I know that it originated in a dispute over an unpaid bar bill, and that the tavern owner sent youths to pelt the British soldiers with snowballs. A crowd gathered to egg them on (the redcoats were not popular), the redcoats eventually responded with shots fired, the rest is history.
Do you have a point apart from the one you got by smacking your head into a pencil sharpener?
cripus attucks
Howie carr used to make a big deal about a namesake who was killed in the Boston massacre.
Coincidently, Howie Carr is...
...the only reason dmc even knows about Attucks.
Cherry pick
Patrick Carr for one.
nice
if i remove all context, and you squint really really hard, i’m making a point here!
his point
I think it actually approaches the mathematical definition of a point, a mere location in space, without any extent whatsoever.
Sharply focused, if I do say so myself.
Did you know they were all buried together? A rather unusual situation involving a colonial Negro.
I think we should give our Colonial forebears some credit. Even before this place was the US, Mr. Attucks got some significant respect in death.
i didnt look it up but from
i didnt look it up but from my recollection from the 5th grade i guess about 7 kids throwing snowballs. i dont know anybody elses name.
whats your angle here. are yoo awkwardly insinuating that theres too much black history in the united states ?
A pitch...
...ball three.
'whats your angle here. are yoo awkwardly insinuating that theres too much black history in the united states ?'
Really? Maybe there's not enough. Education is severely lacking today.
I've been told not to ask questions, but I will anyway, because fuck that shit.
Did you know that the 54th monument was vandalized recently?
That's the first time I've heard
"All Lives Matter" applied to the American Revolution.
You really are a cartoon character. I mean a cheaply-drawn Hanna-Barbera villain/buffoon, not one of the clever or funny ones.
And... it's a walk.
Ball four.
' "All Lives Matter" applied to the American Revolution. '
Wow. That's a stretch. My question was to ascertain the level of knowledge about the Boston Massacre here. It ain't much.
You know what I found last night? Oh, sorry, can't ask questions...I found a picture of some work being done on the front of the building. There was a construction pickup parked right over the bronze and granite memorial.
It was white. Should I read something into that?
See, I believe black lives matter. I really do.
If you think you're a wit with this feeble trolling,
you're half-right.
Same shit different century
Crispus Attucks.
SAY HIS NAME!
SAY HIS NAME!
SAY HIS NAME!
Woh. Are you OK?
Hey, to the most racist person here...here's a picture of a man you referred to as someone's 'homeboy' not too long ago...
Gross for Mayor!
Wow
The meme equivalent of "a few black friends".
How cute.
And for your continued education, HELL YOU TALMBOUT!
You can add the most recent victims of savagery and lacking self-control mixed with racism if you like.
Crispus Attucks in American
Crispus Attucks in American Memory
Historian and author Mitch Kachun talked about his book, First Martyr of Liberty: Crispus Attucks in American Memory. Professor Kachun explored how and why Attucks, a former slave who was killed at the Boston Massacre, has sometimes been celebrated and other times forgotten or vilified by Americans. The American Antiquarian Society hosted this event to mark the 250th anniversary of the March 5, 1770, Boston Massacre.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?469822-1/crispus-attucks-american-memory
Almost impressive
As usual, your mental gymnastics are almost at the Olympic level. Great caricature as usual.
awfully presumptuous
How do you know that the Guard was not aware of the symbolism? Is it possible they were fully aware of the irony, and said "nah, public safety is a higher priority to completing our mission than symbolism is".
Okay
So if someone burns a flag in front of them, they should not be angry over the symbolism because they are too busy?
The Guardsman is a person, so
The Guardsman is a person, so I don't know what his personal reaction would be. But I'm going to guess that his instructions are to observe and report any unrest like flag burning that doesn't cause personal injury.
"Public safety"? What threat,
"Public safety"? What threat, exactly, is the public under right now that warrants the presence of the National Guard? If it's anything other than "some kids broke some glass a week ago" then please describe it.
As I said above, Hanlon's Razor. But
any of the likely explanations still isn't great if the symbolism, intentional or not, means anything to you. Whether it's stupidity, malice, or public safety priorities, the irony remains.
If you want even thicker irony, that spot is also a mere snowball's throw away from the site of that Pulitzer-winning 1976 Herald American photo of a white anti-desegregation thug using a pole-mounted American flag like a lance to assault a black lawyer (who wasn't even protesting, just on his way to City Hall for a work meeting.)
You know, this one: https://www.npr.org/2016/09/18/494442131/life-after-iconic-photo-todays-...
Adams! Close State Street
Adams! Close State Street vehicle access to Government Center, but don't do anything ironic!!!
Seems like that's it.
Just blocking off certain roads. OK, so this is how crazy things are getting...just saw a site (Slate, so it's OK) that shows cops intentionally flattening tires in Minneapolis. Don't really want to believe it, but, well, video and stuff.
'WTF—destruction of property, because why?'
https://imgur.com/gallery/zyO9LVt
There's a screen shot.
Cops have noisemakers. Not the nice ones, either. Oddly, the MSP (yes, ours) are the most honest about it,(note, 2018) FTA:
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2018/feb/05/lrad-update/
'Police: Officers injured after protesters throw ‘improvised explosives’ in Seattle' https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/police-officers-injured-after-protester...
Now, the pic they sent out was a glass candle, so there's some confusion there. Either it's mislabeled, or some other mixup. An IED would immediately bring in ATF and serious Fed authority.
In the beginning, in Minneapolis, there was the Auto Zone. All the windows were broken by a white guy in black block, umbrella, hammer, the whole bit.
It's just getting weirder and weirder. What started out as a protest against the killing of a man has become...what?
Costumes are not substance
A "guy in black block".
So you know him? He was doxxed, but let's just say he was one of those "very fine people" doing some "stereotype antifa" cosplay.
And you fell for it.
So who is he?
Has it been definitively proven who this person is? Or if there are several people in the same get-up? Social media is distorting what is happening. My sense is that there are the usual opportunists taking advantage of demos and disorder, and there are some provocateurs out there as well. Plus others who have an agenda, but it is not related to police brutality.
Hey, home.
I don't know who the guy is.
Nice shiny hammer, so not really a carpenter.
Nice shiny new mask, so not a construction worker.
Nice shiny umbrella, so not really British.
Followed by a black guy carrying a pizza. There's a video.
'He was doxxed, but let's just say he was one of those "very fine people" doing some "stereotype antifa" cosplay.'
They made an arrest? Citation, please.
He broke every window in the Autozone, systematically. He's white. I don't care who he is, I'd love to see him get caught for his felony.
I'll say this...the cell phones out there do provide a wealth of location data.
About doxxing...
Sometimes Very Smart People get it wrong. Very wrong. I'll assume you're talking about how the 4chan tykes figured out who the Auto Zone hammer antifa was. They were wrong, of course. They didn't do too well with the Marathon bomber, if I recall correctly.
And you fell for it.
https://www.stpaul.gov/news/surveillance-video-confirms-saint-paul-polic...
Here's an example of how it can go off the rails...when you think you're right and you're not.
Meet Peter Weinberg:
https://imgur.com/gallery/F2aeVUc
fell for it?
you posted a tweet from pizzagate enthusiast Jack Posobewhateverthefuck the other day. pretty sure you have no standing on the issue of gullibility
Wow, I missed that!
Anyone that credulous should be banned to the kids' table and reminded to keep their shrieking down while the adults are trying to have a conversation. Jack P. is an animate lump of santorum that leaves a trail of neo-Nazi slime.
Nice friends ya got there, asshole.
Layer, upon layer of irony
I had to double check the photo to make sure they weren’t parked on the memorial.
Adam, I’m not sure if you’ll post this but these are my early morning thoughts.
Perhaps the most poignant part of this image is what’s not there but always in my mind’s eye when I see the Old State House from this angle - the crowd that forms every July 4th for the reading of the Declaration of Independence from the balcony. A tradition dating back to 1776 - from a building still adorned with the icons of the Crown, the symbols of the government they were rebelling against.
Will there be armed soldiers at this year”s gathering? Aside from the guys toting muskets, I’d guess not.
How about the irony of the document itself and hypocrisy of its primary author? “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...”. The author being as out of touch with reality back then as that simple ideal remains out of our grasp today. Truly disheartening.
Civil unrest is a good thing. The fact the image in this article exists is a good thing.
Let the peaceful protests grow and continue for as long as it takes. Make things uncomfortable. Make every American take a hard look at their own life, what they’ve been taught, how those may differ from the experience of others, and what they want for their fellow citizens.
Perhaps then we can collectively make this country”s founding ideals and Dr. King’s dream a reality.
Military police and Humvees shouldn't be here at all
Over the weekend, I went to Black Lives Matter rallies in Medford, Cambridge, Everett, and Somerville. None of them needed MPs and Humvees to keep them orderly and peaceful. Get them out of Boston.
it was pretty disgusting
To see such an overreaction and overcommitment of resources - downtown and in Back Bay, BPD wielding their giant protester-beatin' rods like, well... you know
And for what? Just a bunch of people walking, wanting justice.
Yes
And even if the state wanted to keep them nearby, they could be stationed in Haynes or the Garden or somewhere else large and out of sight. Should there be a disruption, it would only take a few minutes to mobilize and respond.
police
As a matter of principle, the police should be demilitarized at once , I don't care for the politics.
Not to start a screaming match. But for example I remember the militaristic police of south Africa in the 80's.not a great idea to have the police in your or mine neighborhood in armoured cars.
Armored cars, tanks and guns
The police caused this problem when Officer Friendly was fired and robocop was hired. Many police officers show contempt for citizens who ask for directions or assistance with accident reports or the location of where their car was towed.
My guess is that it's less ironic and more convergent evolution
I think the reason that there is a Humvee there, and that last summer police charged protesters and started beating them at that spot, isn't that the Boston Massacre happened there.
Rather, the Boston Massacre happened there because it's a natural spot for that stuff to happen.
The fundamental geography of that area hasn't changed that much in the past two hundred and fifty years. If a protest gets rowdy and security forces get violent in response, that's just, geographically, a place that it's likely to happen. I don't know why -- if my supposition is right, then I'm sure there's something about how streets funnel into each other or whatever, and someone who studied ... whatever branch of study would cover that question ... would be able to say why. But I strongly suspect that the reason stuff happens there is because it's a natural place for stuff to happen.
it's not natural
the only reason "it happens there" is because the police and military put themselves there to begin with.
the beatings and repression only happen where the police decide to show up. it's not geography, it's strategy.
The fundamental geography of
Well, except for a huge number of blocks being leveled and streets ripped out for Government Center and the Artery, both just steps away, sure.
Are you trying
to describe the importance of the State House using ley lines?
I've got a lot of weird shit on my 2020 bingo card, but I did not expect this today.
Naw: by traffic funneling.
Naw: by traffic funneling. Roads have a tendency to encourage people in different areas; narrowing tends to slow people down; groups clumping up tends to be where Things Might Go Weird.
Not ley lines. Street design.
Um...
...hmh. Maybe. Definitely maybe. The soldiers were guarding the building (less than a dozen, I think) and there was a large mob. Since this happened before the Bruins existed, they were probably drunk for some other reason.
They argue, and it goes downhill from there.
You want your answers? Look up old maps.
That's not the spot. It is near the spot
The actual marker is on that traffic island in the extreme left of the photo. Ok, the marker changes every time the traffic pattern does, but still.
After damage so extensive it can't be tallied, protect treasures
Perhaps the National Guard protection was placed there because of the very recent attacks on the MA State House, RI State House and many state capitols or the incalcuable damage to public and private property in Boston just a week earlier. It's plausible that the rioters may think the old State House is a racist symbol and vandalize it like they did the Robert Gould Shaw Memorial, a historic monument to Black Civil War soldiers nearby. Anything that looks nice, orderly and well maintained is a target these days. Let's protect our historical treasures, even if tremendous damage has already been done because of Baker/Walsh incompetence.
It could have been prevented
If only they let you check the protester's SSNs against their state of birth!
bad for your health, probably
I wonder what it is like to live in a state of perpetual fear.
Please stop.
Damage was not "so extensive" that anything. Damage was not "incalcuable." It was a one-night-only episode of vandalism, and a fairly mild one at that. It's been a boon to the city's plywood and window installers, and little else.
Why are you like this? Are you trying to get a talk radio show or something? What do you gain by spreading this fearful nonsense about my city every single time you post?
I'm not particularly worried about the National Guard
Although the military vehicles and military gear are (intentionally) scary-looking, what you have with the National Guard is mostly young adults trained as professional soldiers.
True, they lack the training in crowd management and de-escalation that good professional police have, and yes, I remember Kent State, but on the other hand they also lack whole thin-skinned, chip-on-the-shoulder, us-against-the-world thin-blue-line bullshit, which I believe makes them on the whole safer.
Hmm
What could possibly go wrong?
What could possibly go wrong?
As I pointed out in my original message, Kent State is what, among other things, could go wrong.
I agree that seeing the
I agree that seeing the National Guard is less concerning than seeing the police decked out like this would be, but they are still an unnecessary and intentionally intimidating presence on our streets. Military out of Boston now. The longer they stay here doing nothing for no reason, the less respectable they become.
"less dangerous", not "safer"
Agreed that they lack the civilian-hating cop attitude. They also lack training in crowd response. It's a tossup.
The moral of the story:
If you install a historic marker that's flush with the ground, making it easy to miss and easy to park over, eventually someone is going to park over it.
People drive over the Commander Elm marker in Cambridge every day.
Try: National Guard ===> Minuteman?
The ignorance being expressed by many here is outstanding -- top of the heap -- can't be surmounted
Try reading some non-PC non-Revisionist History about the city in which you are residing [physically or virtually]
The Guard is there precisely because of what happened on that spot March 5, 1770 [250 years ago + a couple of months a few days and some hours]. It's not so much a monument to an event as a battlefield -- think Gettysburg, or perhaps the North Bridge in Concord.
There is nothing remotely connected between Soldiers of the King of England who shot the first Martyrs of American Freedom and the Massachusetts National Guard standing guard over a place of great honor.
Try reading some non-PC non-Revisionist History:
11-year-old Christopher Seider [or Snyder or Snider multiple possible names] was the prelude to the Massacre -- he was killed in February by a Bostonian Loyalist [who sided with the King of England on the matter of the protests over the Stamp Act and the ensuing boycott of British Goods being imported through the Port of Boston]. His death and the trial of the accused cranked-up the existing tension between the people of Massachusetts Bay Colony and the town of Boston in particular and the British troops occupying Boston under Military Governor General Gage.
Crispus Attucks or Atticks [multiple spellings] was an American Patriot whose life was taken because of his participation in a demonstration against the occupation of Boston by the British Army. Despite the fact that most probably his participation was non-Non-violent -- He was shot dead by the power of the King of England -- whose subject Attucks was at the time of his death.
Attucks and his fellow martyrs [including Samuel Gray and James Caldwell], and eight others were wounded [Two of whom: Samuel Maverick and Patrick Carr, later died of their injuries] -- making five victims became a rallying point for the seeds of the revolution. Samuel Adams held funerals for the Boston Massacre victims who were then buried in Granary Burying Ground [where they remain today.]
The Boston Massacre, skillfully manipulated by Samuel Adams led in-inexorably to two key things which we cherish:
1 John Adams defending the accused soldiers in a Courtroom -- the right even of a person hated by the public to have a fair trial and to be acquired if not guilty -- a key part of the Massachusetts Constitution and ultimately the Bill of Rights
2 the United States of America and the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights including specifically:
1st Amendment -- specifically Lawful Assembly
2nd Amendment -- the Right to Beare arms
and the 3rd, 4th -- directly connected with the British Occupation of Boston
the 5th, 6th, 8th -- directly connected with Adams' defense of the British Soldiers and Captain Preston
Of course the 2nd required a long chain of events many of which we are commemorating as happened 250 years ago -- beginning with the Boston Massacre this year
and many of which happened in downtown Boston other neighborhoods and the surrounding cities and towns:
Bedford, Lincoln, Lexington, Arlington [Menotomy], Cambridge, Woburn, Sudbury, Concord, South Boston [Dorchester Heights], Somerville, Bostpon Waterfront, Charlestown, etc. -- and many which involved names far more well known than Attucks [some of whom are buried just feet away from him].
Just perhaps that National Guardsman -- who might be from Boston itself -- perhaps even grew-up just hundreds of feet from the Old Statehouse -- was there to protect the Circle in the pavement and the building behind it from an attack by people ignorant of history or willfully desiring to erase it from our lexicon.
PS: if the ignorance shown in renaming Dudley Square to Nubian Square [despite any significant connection to Nubia] could be undone -- a great honor could to be bestowed on Attucks -- by naming it Crispus Attucks Square with a bigger than Life-size statue placed in the center of the square.
PPS: about the stone circle
In 1887, a marker dedicated to the victims of the Boston Massacre was placed on the exact spot where Crispus Attucks fell. However -- due to construction including the Scollay Square urban renewal and T-related projects, the marker has moved many times over the years -- but is in the general area where the massacre occurred.