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What to get the editors of the Improper Bostonian for Christmas: A map of Boston
By adamg on Mon, 11/28/2011 - 9:21pm
Dana Reichman Gitell agrees with the editors of the magazine for people too busy to look at big words that Redd's in Roslindale has good food. But, honestly, "it's well worth a drive to the suburbs?" Do these people even realize where the mayor is from?
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Comments
Sigh...
I know quite a few people that work for the magazine. Good people. This must've been written by a non-native. But it shouldn't have gotten past the editor.
Natives?
Are there really that many natives in the Boston media? I get the feeling they all came from NH or upstate NY.
Just quoting from
Just quoting from Wikipedia:
"In the United States and Canada, suburb can refer either to an outlying residential area of a city or town or to a separate municipality, borough, or unincorporated area outside a town or city."
Roslindale is low-density, residential, and not on a subway line. I think it's fair to call it a suburb.
Nice try, but ...
Subtlety is not exactly a strong suit at the Improper and I really doubt they were going for the subtle definition there - I think somebody really thinks Roslindale is a suburb, like Newton or Milton or something.
I stand by what I said.
I stand by what I said. Roslindale is a lot more like Milton than like the South End or the Fenway. Even Newton has a subway line.
Roslindale.
Roslindale has a commuter rail stop which stops frequently enough in Roslindale Village to qualify as a train station.
I would argue the fact that
I would argue the fact that it has a Commuter Rail stop - a hallmark of suburbs - and no subway or light rail stops qualifies it more than the parts of Newton that have Green Line stops. Of course, this whole argument is silly, anyways.
And what about buses?
Rozzy Square is served by 10 bus lines, a hallmark of urban.
As for Frank G's Milton comparison, Roslindale's population density is significantly higher, more along the lines of urban, rather than suburban. Note, too, that it exceeds the total average for all of Boston.
Roslindale: 14,093 people per square mile
Milton: 2,014 people per square mile
Boston: 13,323 people per square mile
Source: city-data.com
Next time, do some research, before sticking your foot in your mouth. Roslindale is demonstrably not a suburb.
Calm down there, pal.
I wasn't arguing that it was a suburb (because I don't think it is). I was arguing that the Commuter Rail stop doesn't qualify it as urban in any way, shape or form. I would argue that the bus routes don't necessarily qualify it as urban either...Arlington has the 77, one of the most frequent bus routes on the whole system, along with an entire host of other ones, but it is certainly a suburb. Of course, considering the Roslindale it is a neighborhood of Boston, calling it a suburb is silly in the first place.
The bit about the foot was meant for Frank G
My only comment to you was that even though Rozzy lacks an Orange Line station, the shear density of bus lines is substantial enough to indicate a high level of transit utilization. You are correct, though, a bus in and of itself does not mean urban per se.
Again, I stand by what I
Again, I stand by what I said, which is that Roslindale is a lot more like Milton than like the South End or the Fenway. Cambridge has a population density higher than Boston, but some might consider that a suburb too, just by virtue of it being outside city limits. And, while I live in Cambridge and find it to be very urban, I don't think that's out of line. Nor do I think it's out of line to call a neighborhood outside the city center, which has no high-rise buildings or rapid transit, and was once part of a different town, a suburb.
Follow the logic, and guess what?
If we want to go with strict definitions, then your basis for accepting Cambridge as a suburb because it isn't technically part of Boston, would also indicate that Roslindale is not a suburb. I use a less strict definition myself, and would include Cambridge, along with Roslindale as part of the urban fabric of Boston.
Rozzie is a "suburb"
But it was annexed into the city of Boston a long time ago. It is only an accident of history that Brookline, Cambridge and Somerville were not also annexed.
Somerville has the highest density of a city in New England. And, it also lacks Commuter Rail stops. But is it a suburb?
I don't think that distinguishing the transit by mode is useful. Look at frequency and route. The Riverside line through Newton is built on an old abandoned commuter railroad. It behaves like one too, with long distances between stops. But it has short headways like a subway. On the other hand, the LIRR also has short headways. Penn Station sends out 12-car trains every 2 minutes during peak hours. And it provides some level of service 24 hours a day. Other countries have even more intense service in their cities. Needham line is more of a traditional American "commuter" style, but there are plenty of buses around there which operate at short headways.
Lots of variety.
Using subways as a metric is so New York
Because in New York, the subways literally stop at the city line (take Far Rockaway - please - you get off at the last stop on the longest subway line, walk five minutes and damn if you aren't in Nassau County).
We're not New York.
Subway line
Braintree has a subway line. What's your point? A subway line doesn't designate what's part of Boston.
Subway is not the metric.
And the South End does not. I think quite a few people would be surprised that the South End is not urban.
See my other post about population density. It's a far better indicator of urbanity than proximity to a rail line. Of course, as another person already pointed out, Roslindale does have a rail line, one that functions far more like a rapid transit line than most of the others, as it barely makes it out of the city, and the stations are spaced within walking distance of each other.
Nowhere in the South End is
Nowhere in the South End is more than 3/4 mile from a T stop. Mass Ave, Back Bay, Copley, Arlington, Symphony, Prudential, and Broadway are within a half mile of some part of the South End.
Almost all of Roslindale is more than a mile from a T stop.
I live in the South End and take the T almost daily. I never take the T to Roslindale.
I'm going to hop on the T in Roslindale this very afternoon!
Of course, it'll be a bus, but they all have these big black Ts in circles on them nowadays and they even let me use my CharlieCard. Then, after 10 minutes or so, I'll get off at Forest Hills so I can take the Orange Line downtown for a meeting.
Dumb post
I'll re-write it, see if you can spot the flaw in your logic.
I live in
the South EndRoslindale and take the T almost daily. I never take the T toRoslindalethe South End.It used to be a suburb until
It used to be a suburb until about 140 years ago. How old is the writer?
I live in Roslindale. If I
I live in Roslindale. If I pay my excise tax to Boston, I don't live in a suburb.
I lived in the BURBS?!
Wait, wait - I lived in Rozzie and now live in West Roxbury. Am I still in the 'burbs? I thought the 'burbs meant Hanover, Braintree, the rest of the South Shore and some other towns up on the North Shore (wherever that is...) I'm so damned confused - HELP ME!!!
I think my tongue just got stuck in my cheek...
Hanover?
Maybe I'm showing my age but when I was REALLY small, Hanover and points south were pretty much The Boonies - not The Burbs - because with a 40 MPH speed limit and no SE Expressway the commute was hours (according to my Dad who is 87 and can still tell you about going through Mattapan - or was it Milton? - & JP to get to IBM in Boston from the South Shore). And commuter rail lines were non-existent.
When I think of Boston suburbs Wellesley & Weston & Needham come to mind. I'm not saying that's right - but that's what comes to mind.
That's cool!!
I'm a child of the '70s, and Rt 3, in all of it's glory, ran right near my house. Wouldn't call Hangover the boonies now... :)
suburb (ˈsʌbɜːb) [Click for
suburb (ˈsʌbɜːb) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]
— n
a residential district situated on the outskirts of a city or town
That appears to be correct, yes.
If the article had said "drive out of the city" youd have a point, but a suburb can exist within the city boundary.
Just ask LA.
Congratulations, Adam!
On your recent promotion to residency in the Bosky Dells of suburban Massachusetts. Please let us know when the barn is completed and the new horse stock has arrived.
I'll send you a telegram
I just hope it's before the first snow; I hate having to trudge uphill both ways through the drifts just to get to the Western Union office.
Nice
This is on Universal Hub because, for WHATEVER reason, Gaffen loves to feel as if he lives in the big bad city. Gives him more "street cred", perhaps?
Nah
I'm fully aware our little bit of Roslindale is hardly "big bad city." When we look out the kitchen window, we can see the golf course (well, in late fall and winter, at least, you know, after the leaves fall off the trees in the woods behind our house). At the same time, yeah, I obviously get peeved at people who think Boston consists of about two square miles centered on the intersection of Newbury and Arlington, when, in fact, most Bostonians live nowhere near there.
Thank you UHub!
Completely agree; it drives me nuts when people think the only part of "true" Boston is that which resembles a glamorous set piece from Sex and the City. Some would probably think Southie is a suburb if they didn't know that it's short for South Boston.
haven't you caught on...
Adam, Ron Mexico obviously dislikes you with the white-hot heat of a thousand suns. I don't know what you did to his mother, but you really should apologize.
As far as these burb/city discussions go, they're kind of stupid as people are looking for some sort of hard and fast official definition of terms that people use in a fuzzy way. It doesn't matter how OED or wikipedia defines the word, people will use it as they wish. And when it comes to "Boston" everything is so much more confused by neighborhoods that used to be suburbs now being part of the city. And "being from Boston" having some elasticity depending on who you're talking to. I tell people not from here that I'm "from Boston" when I grew up in Saugus. Not that I'm (entirely) ashamed of being from Scenic and Lovely Saugus, it just doesn't mean anything to people who aren't from here.
Just the same the folks at Improper Bostonian are tools.
Agreed,,,,
I've always considered the Improper Bostonian the red headed step child of Boston Magazine. Another proud publication that wants the world to think that Boston consists only of the Back Bay, the South End, Fanueil Hall and the Back Bay.
Boston Magazine
I always thought Boston Magazine wanted the world to think that Boston consisted of plastic surgeons, overpriced home furnishing stores in cities beginning with 'N' and obese children who need to go to fat farms in Vermont for the summer...
Yes he must dislike Adam...
....but one has to wonder what kind of cred one is going for by giving himself the name 'Ron Mexico'
(I was born in Weymouth, grew up in Newton and SE Mass, and if anyone asks where I'm from I usually say Vermont)
Geography
I met some folks while I was living in Wisconsin who I knew were from the "Boston area" but they didn't know where I was from. When I asked them they said "oh we're from just outside Boston, near Concord." When pressed they finally admitted the town near Concord was North Andover. ?? Close enough I guess. The weird part is that being from Concord might have some sense of cachet around here, but who in Wisconsin would know much about Concord outside of something to do with Paul Revere and the British? One of these folks went on to get really drunk and regale us all with his Teddy Kennedy impressions. A memorable night as I got to experience drunken, obnoxious Bostonians from the other side.
Let's go with the fact he may
Let's go with the fact he may have been slightly more blitzed than at first he appeared... If he didn't have a Valley accent, chances are he wasn't all that indigenous to North Andover, either... not for nothin', but really...
Pedigree
Well, there were no r's anywhere near the end of his or his mother's words and we got reminiscing about Duncan's Beach and Canobie Lake Park. Once he got really going he started complaining about how Lawrence had really gone to hell since the "Reecans" moved in. And his Teddy Kennedy shtick was ripped off of an old BCN routine.
This was not mock masshole material.
I love this thread!!
:)
Wiki also says...
Roslindale is "primarily residential neighborhood of Boston, Massachusetts". Not a burb.
Of course, Adam could have written that himself. :)
Nope, not me
I do admit that once, as an experiment when bored, I did do a fair amount of editing on the Roslindale page to try to make Roslindale sound as boring as possible (I think I included stuff like the number of barbershops in Roslindale Square). I also threw in a crack about arrivistes calling the center of the neighborhood Roslindale Village rather than Roslindale Square. Amazingly, over the coming months, pretty much everything I wrote was edited out; must be somebody who didn't think Roslindale warranted the ennui.
Square versus Village
Apparently this was _originally_ called Roslindale Village -- but has oscillated to and from Roslindale Square Square over time.
I use both terms, but not interchangeably
The square is bound by Corinth St., Belgrade Ave., South St., and Washington St. Poplar runs through the middle of it.
The village includes the residential areas fanning out a few blocks from the square. I live in the Village, and can walk to the Square to shop, or select one of the many transit options for travel to other parts of the city.
I swear...
somedays Adam posts these items just to get the natives all in a tizzy.
The Pleasant...
... would never be caught dead in a suburb. Case closed.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
And that's the final word!
.
Roslindale
You ask. Do these people even realize where the mayor is from?
It's not Roslindale-He's from Hyde Park, duh.
I guess you don't know Boston's neighborhoods any better.
Oh, you so smart
I know he's from Hyde Park (Readville, to get picky about it). My thinking was that Hyde Park is even farther away from downtown than Roslindale, so the Improper really didn't know what it was talking about.
Not to mention Menino's soft spot for Rozzie
Dating back to his city council days when he represented both Roslindale and Hyde Park, Menino has always been a Rozzie booster. He played an integral role in getting Main Streets going, and has been a huge supporter as Mayor.
So..
...what explains his sore spot for Eastie? It seems we're the least favored neighborhood of the urban mechanic mayor of the City of Neighborhoods. We can't be any bigger assholes than anyone else in this city...
Maybe you don't deliver
the right sort of votes in municipal election?